Discussion
Grumfutock said:
No it wasn't but as you ask. No of course they shouldn't get to keep everything. However giving everything up isn't an answer either. There needs to be full and frank talks from both sides, with concessions made by both sides, and sincere and honest declarations of peaceful intent from both sides.
Israel will not win by sealing of Gaza. Hamas will not win by denying Israel the right to exist. Neither will win by lobbing missiles at each other.
It is a shame that the rest of the thread and various disagreements are not this reasonable.... Israel will not win by sealing of Gaza. Hamas will not win by denying Israel the right to exist. Neither will win by lobbing missiles at each other.
I don't think Israel should unilaterally withdraw unconditionally 'giving up everything' but one of the issues long term will be 'how much do they get to keep?'
Outright hostilities need to stop and Hamas/Palestine need to stop indiscriminate rockets and at least try to negotiate rather than keep poking Israel. They won't though until Israel gives SOME concessions etc.
Scuffers said:
Slaav said:
Apologies for the cr4p quoting as on fat fingered iPad!
here we go again!we have another history 101 failure...
How many times can you quote this line of crap?
I also missed the other bits where I have got my comments completely wrong. Sorry for being a dumbass!
Out of interest, how much, if any, of the illegal/legal settlements in question should be given up by Israel? Should Israel relax the blockade?
BTW, I would not expect them to so without a suspension of rockets etc from Palestine.... Or should the Palestinians simply surrender and give in to the rightful claims of Israel?
I would genuinely appreciate some simple replies or answers rather than more of the vitriol and sarcasm seen elsewhere on this contentious thread by many others......
define illegal in the context of borders?
you can't have it all ways, people go on about this and that UN resolutions, yet pick and choose which ones you want to use to make your point.
Look, I am no fan of the way some have chosen to build settlements where they clearly should not, however, to keep banging on about it being palestinian land is laughable, whilst we can argue the land ownership issue till the cows come home, the one thing you can pretty much guarantee is that very little of it was owned by palestinians.
If you want to go on about the original UN planned borders, then you need to realise that the palestinians never accepted them either a the time or now, so what's the point in suggesting that this is a solution today?
I am still not sure if a two state solution can ever actually pan out, any more than the single state we have now does, however, I do think that on balance, it's probably only going to make matters worse.
I read the news reports of rockets coming from Syria now, and let's face it, this is not exactly going to help is it?
I guess this opens up the opportunity for Assad to buddy up to Israel? - that would be interesting.... even if highly unlikely...
you can't have it all ways, people go on about this and that UN resolutions, yet pick and choose which ones you want to use to make your point.
Look, I am no fan of the way some have chosen to build settlements where they clearly should not, however, to keep banging on about it being palestinian land is laughable, whilst we can argue the land ownership issue till the cows come home, the one thing you can pretty much guarantee is that very little of it was owned by palestinians.
If you want to go on about the original UN planned borders, then you need to realise that the palestinians never accepted them either a the time or now, so what's the point in suggesting that this is a solution today?
I am still not sure if a two state solution can ever actually pan out, any more than the single state we have now does, however, I do think that on balance, it's probably only going to make matters worse.
I read the news reports of rockets coming from Syria now, and let's face it, this is not exactly going to help is it?
I guess this opens up the opportunity for Assad to buddy up to Israel? - that would be interesting.... even if highly unlikely...
allnighter said:
Scuffers said:
this is what winds me up, your use of wildly inaccurate emotive terms
when will you get it into your head that it's not Indiscriminate?
you may not like it, but they are very much targeted (unlike the rockets!).
eg, the latest house demolished (the 3 Hamas leaders) was not down to some indiscriminate attack, it was very much targeted, and from the results, extremely accurately with a non-explosive kinetic munition (note the lack of damage around it)
much as you seem to loathe the IDF, their professionalism on this so far has been pretty close to 100% in terms of hitting the targets they were aiming at.
yes, there have been a handful of near misses, (and as with everything in this context, it only takes a small error to have a pretty big outcome).
to then go on that they are a terrorist organisation again and again is almost sycophantic.
Yes I would not expect anything less from a feral IDF cheerleader like yourself Scuffers, so excuse me if the rest of us do NOT share your undying passion for the best paid, best equipped, and best U.S supported terrorist organisation in the whole world, and yes you are consistent and keen on 'sugar-coating' everything the IDF do even when shamelessly bombing sleeping children, oh yes, I almost forgot, you call our reaction "think-of-the-childrenism", so yes carry in your misinformed, blinkered, drip fed, brain washed, ignorant and stupid interventions against anyone who 'dared' criticise your beloved terrorists, and conveniently ignore our equal condemnation of Hamas's targetting of Israeli civilians. You are truly pathetic, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.when will you get it into your head that it's not Indiscriminate?
you may not like it, but they are very much targeted (unlike the rockets!).
eg, the latest house demolished (the 3 Hamas leaders) was not down to some indiscriminate attack, it was very much targeted, and from the results, extremely accurately with a non-explosive kinetic munition (note the lack of damage around it)
much as you seem to loathe the IDF, their professionalism on this so far has been pretty close to 100% in terms of hitting the targets they were aiming at.
yes, there have been a handful of near misses, (and as with everything in this context, it only takes a small error to have a pretty big outcome).
to then go on that they are a terrorist organisation again and again is almost sycophantic.
Edited by allnighter on Sunday 24th August 08:03
difficult isn't it, I don't know why anyone continues to bother with that blind, misguided idiot.Slaav said:
It is a shame that the rest of the thread and various disagreements are not this reasonable....
I don't think Israel should unilaterally withdraw unconditionally 'giving up everything' but one of the issues long term will be 'how much do they get to keep?'
Outright hostilities need to stop and Hamas/Palestine need to stop indiscriminate rockets and at least try to negotiate rather than keep poking Israel. They won't though until Israel gives SOME concessions etc.
The problem is that while Israel feel threaten by Hamas or any other Palestinian group/Arab nation they will continue to hold the ground they have. Don't forget they only hold it as a result of Arab aggression against them, they needed it to trade space for time if they were attacked again. To persuade them to give it up is an impossible task when some groups still refuse to recognise their right to exist, adopt and aggressively pursue threats of wiping them out and lob missiles at them. I don't think Israel should unilaterally withdraw unconditionally 'giving up everything' but one of the issues long term will be 'how much do they get to keep?'
Outright hostilities need to stop and Hamas/Palestine need to stop indiscriminate rockets and at least try to negotiate rather than keep poking Israel. They won't though until Israel gives SOME concessions etc.
In the same breath there has never been a time since 1948 that the Arab world has been on, generally speaking, such good terms with Israel or has been distracted with their own internal problems. So maybe now is the time. I cant see it personally but maybe.
The one thing I know for certain is that whilst Hamas fire rockets, kidnap and kill Israelis and carry out bombings in Israel, they aren't going to feel particularly like talking peace. Hezbollah saw this, Egypt saw this and Syria saw this. Hence those parts are more stable than they have been in a long time. Hamas have to make the 1st move and renounce the attacks. Again I cant see this happening, sadly.
The whole anti Zionist movement like to blame Israel for everything and see them as the sole cause of the problem but they forget that this all goes back to Israel being a fairly small land mass and that need to trade space for time. They also like to quote UN resolutions that Israel break or ignore but often fail to understand that Hamas also have UN resolutions against them. Basically they both view the UN as a toothless tiger, an opinion I don't totally disagree with.
Scuffers said:
Grumfutock said:
Israel will not win by sealing of Gaza.
I may have missed something here but when has Israel ever wanted Gaza?they walked out of Gaza some 10 years ago and left it for the PA to manage, and look what a stand-up job they are doing.
RedTrident said:
Scuffers said:
define illegal in the context of borders?
People should just stop responding to you. You're just a Zionist fanboy who'll do everything possible to distract from the murderers and war criminals that you blindly follow.I don't think that any legal definition of International borders really applies in the context of this conflict.
If memory serves me right, in this context, the international borders for Israel were only really formed by the UN in '48 in order to try and stop the ongoing conflict at the time. The land wasn't sufficient for the massive influx of 'refugees' especially the displaced Jews post WW2?
One could argue (although never agreed by the Palestinians or most neighbouring Arabs) that these borders as drawn up by the recently formed UN are the nearest we have to International borders in this conflict. The conflict has it's roots in many millennia of claim and counter claim but in the absence of an 'official legal border map' surely the UN maps/borders are a good starting point? I know the Arabs never signed the agreement etc, but this is possibly the nearest thing to an independently adjudged border? Only issue is whether with negotiation, the Arab world will ever agree to them even if it leads to an acceptable two state solution? It was at best, a compromise.... And as independent a one as I have seen!
If you start from the above premise, it would be easy to identify the 'illegal' settlements?
What would your definition of Israel's borders be?
Slaav said:
If that is aimed at my untidy post above then I have a simple answer:
NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
I think this is the negotiated settlement many on here want.NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/branco-cartoo...
Mrr T said:
Slaav said:
If that is aimed at my untidy post above then I have a simple answer:
NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
I think this is the negotiated settlement many on here want.NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/branco-cartoo...
Mrr T said:
Slaav said:
If that is aimed at my untidy post above then I have a simple answer:
NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
I think this is the negotiated settlement many on here want.NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/branco-cartoo...
I think the radical and disgusting position of the extremist side of Hamas etc whereby there is a stated goal of wiping out the State of Israel is abhorrent! Simple and straightforward. I treat the extreme Hamas view with the same utter contempt as for those who are 'anti Jew' through being ignorant idiots. 'Hating' anyone purely for their race, religion or Nationality is 100% unacceptable in any shape or form.
The stated goal of Hamas and the extreme factions within Palestine and some of the Arab world to destroy and wipe out the State of Israel should never be countenanced now or ever IMO.
I feel similarly re the extreme right within Israel and especially re the extreme Zionist view which pursues a one State and worse, a one religion solution to the detriment and 100% exclusion of all others.
If there is one more life lost on either side, it is one too many! To make light of that principle by linking to that cartoon was actually quite offensive to me personally but it did make a very clear point which may indeed justify its inclusion - albeit I would rather that it was not aimed at me please.
Slaav said:
I feel similarly re the extreme right within Israel and especially re the extreme Zionist view which pursues a one State and worse, a one religion solution to the detriment and 100% exclusion of all others.
once again, I have to ask, where do you get this stuff from?I have never seen anybody anywhere suggest this - infact, the only religion whose followers have ever prosecuted this (in the region) is the Muslims (in the current form of ISIS)
Scuffers said:
Slaav said:
I feel similarly re the extreme right within Israel and especially re the extreme Zionist view which pursues a one State and worse, a one religion solution to the detriment and 100% exclusion of all others.
once again, I have to ask, where do you get this stuff from?I have never seen anybody anywhere suggest this - infact, the only religion whose followers have ever prosecuted this (in the region) is the Muslims (in the current form of ISIS)
Scuffers said:
once again, I have to ask, where do you get this stuff from?
I have never seen anybody anywhere suggest this - infact, the only religion whose followers have ever prosecuted this (in the region) is the Muslims (in the current form of ISIS)
Although repealed/replaced, wasn't there a UN resolution that had the same fears as I have expressed? Or is that simply coincidence? I am comfortable that I am neither unhinged or biased in this debate. I will pop off and see if I am correct with quotes or clear references. Are you 100% certain that I won't find them?I have never seen anybody anywhere suggest this - infact, the only religion whose followers have ever prosecuted this (in the region) is the Muslims (in the current form of ISIS)
Scuffers said:
If we are going to start quoting JC,
http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/121588/most-...
Note the author.
I don't get your point. Is it JC publishes anti-Hamas rant, or JC publishes anti-Hamas rant written by Brit? http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/121588/most-...
Note the author.
And why pick on JC? I've quoted and referenced Haaretz and the Times of Israel pretty extensively here. Maybe you don't realise they are newspapers published by Israeli Jews?
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Sunday 24th August 15:30
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
athetic, who are the 'many on here' who want 'death to all Jews'?????? What an imbecile!
I never suggestedyou want all jews dead. I am sure you will be happy so long as as most of them are.
allnighter said:
hat is quite a claim, care to back it up with anything I, or anyone on here said? Or perhaps you should quit talking out of your a$$ and engage in sensible debate. Give it a try! Cretin!
If you one day learn the meaning of sensible debate let me know. As it is I will contine to use your debating style. Idiot.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff