Israeli

[Grumfutock]

Well blow me down!

Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 25th August 08:42

[allnighter]

Mrr T said:

allnighter said:

Mrr T said:

RedTrident said:

So you're not going to admit you made such a disgusting accusation up? You accused a poster of never suggesting that they wanted all jews dead. You were sure that they will be happy so long as as most of them are.

At least have the decency to apologise to allnighter for claiming that he was supportive of genocide when that is clearly not the case. And before you start to post some more diversionary nonsense, just pause and think about it first.

Is that the same allnighter who accused Israel of genocide?

You're just making it up as you go along aren't you? Lies after lies. Where did I use the term 'genocide' in relation to Israel? Go on embarrass yourself even more, Which page and which line? and while you're at it find me evidence of me stating or insinuating that I would be happy if most of Jews were dead too. You are a pathetic liar, and you are clearly a desperate fool digging yourself a bigger hole now!

Here's some help:

You did read my post?

“Is that the same allnighter who accused Israel of genocide”

Evidence below:

allnighter said:

only you overlooked the Zionist terrorism Arabs were subjected to and the forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of 750.000 Arabs and the destruction of more than 500 villages to make room for these immigrants in order to change the demographics of Palestine, because the racist Zionist future state was not ready to tolerate a majority Arab population, nor was Zionism inclusive in its ideology.It was/is no different to a white supremacist ideology: Racist to the core.

allnighter said:

Indiscriminate tank shelling of densely populated area like Gaza by the IDF constitute a crime against humanity and is a form of terrorism sanctioned and sponsored by the state of Israel which collectively punishes Palestinians as long as Hamas is in charge.There is no such thing as "legal terrorism" just because it's conducted by an official government.The US and Israel - flatly reject the concept that a state is capable of “terrorism” so according to their definition the Ton Ton Macoute of Haiti under the Duvaliers, the Nazi SS and Gestapo, or the ISI of Pakistan - all of whom used outright terrorist tactics for various purposes, were not “terrorists” because they were official state agencies. I think most observers would consider their actions terrorist in nature.

And where did I state genocide you fool? Comprehension of the English language is not your forte is it now? Go on then, search some more and find where I accused Israel of genocide, or where I stated that I'd be happy if the majority if not all Jews were dead.See I bolded the key words for you to help you out.If I were you I'd stop posting on PH altogether because you are making yourself look more and more stupid!

[Slaav]

Scuffers said:

zuby84 said:

Scuffers said:

ignoring that, your link does not suggest converting everybody to judaism (in fact AFAIK, that's impossible, your either born a jew or not.)

Scuffers, this is why people are ignoring you and why I'm going to be ignoring your points from now on. No one accused Israel of trying to convert everyone to Judaism.

You confused (purposefully or stupidly) "Israel must attack Gaza even more mercilessly, expel the population and resettle the territory with Jews" with your version of events being "Israel wants to convert everyone to Judaism." [which no one at all has alluded to AFAIK]

Just to make things clear "expel the population and resettle the territory with Jews" is not the same as "convert the population to Judaism."

You don't even know what you're arguing about half the time.

can you not hold a thought for more than 10 seconds?

look back at the original accusation.

Slaav said:

I feel similarly re the extreme right within Israel and especially re the extreme Zionist view which pursues a one State and worse, a one religion solution to the detriment and 100% exclusion of all others.

I made a statement which Zuby84 has kindly quoted above whereby I made a suggestion/claim that there were (by definition) extreme right nut jobs with views that advocated a 'one religion' solution/aim? Note, not advocating conversion but instead displacement and replacement with Jews as opposed to Israelis.

I then found a quote that (to me) backed this up. zuby84? Then posted a link confirming that there were 'nutters' advocating just this sort of solution.... I am confused now with your response above so think I really will back out of this debate/thread.

[Grumfutock]

allnighter said:

And where did I state genocide you fool? Comprehension of the English language is not your forte is it now? Go on then, search some more and find where I accused Israel of genocide, or where I stated that I'd be happy if the majority if not all Jews were dead.See I bolded the key words for you to help you out.If I were you I'd stop posting on PH altogether because you are making yourself look more and more stupid!

I don't really want to get in the cross fire but not actually using the word "genocide" in the above quotes is a bit pedantic mate. To make comparisons between Israel, the Nazi's, the Gestapo and the SS wasn't done by accident.

[allnighter]

Grumfutock said:

allnighter said:

And where did I state genocide you fool? Comprehension of the English language is not your forte is it now? Go on then, search some more and find where I accused Israel of genocide, or where I stated that I'd be happy if the majority if not all Jews were dead.See I bolded the key words for you to help you out.If I were you I'd stop posting on PH altogether because you are making yourself look more and more stupid!

I don't really want to get in the cross fire but not actually using the word "genocide" in the above quotes is a bit pedantic mate. To make comparisons between Israel, the Nazi's, the Gestapo and the SS wasn't done by accident.

Come again? I was addressing the specific point of "State sponsored terrorism" which has nought to to do with "genocide", then I stated that The US and Israel - flatly reject the concept that a state is capable of “terrorism” so according to their definition the Ton Ton Macoute of Haiti under the Duvaliers, the Nazi SS and Gestapo, or the ISI of Pakistan - all of whom used outright terrorist tactics for various purposes, were not “terrorists” because they were official state agencies. I think most observers would consider their actions terrorist in nature. Capisce?

[Grumfutock]

allnighter said:

ome again? I was addressing the specific point of "State sponsored terrorism" which has nought to to do with "genocide", then I stated that The US and Israel - flatly reject the concept that a state is capable of “terrorism” so according to their definition the Ton Ton Macoute of Haiti under the Duvaliers, the Nazi SS and Gestapo, or the ISI of Pakistan - all of whom used outright terrorist tactics for various purposes, were not “terrorists” because they were official state agencies. I think most observers would consider their actions terrorist in nature. Capisce?

So you made the comparison. Capisci?

[allnighter]

Grumfutock said:

allnighter said:

ome again? I was addressing the specific point of "State sponsored terrorism" which has nought to to do with "genocide", then I stated that The US and Israel - flatly reject the concept that a state is capable of “terrorism” so according to their definition the Ton Ton Macoute of Haiti under the Duvaliers, the Nazi SS and Gestapo, or the ISI of Pakistan - all of whom used outright terrorist tactics for various purposes, were not “terrorists” because they were official state agencies. I think most observers would consider their actions terrorist in nature. Capisce?

So you made the comparison. Capisci?

Yes as far as state sponsored terrorism is concerned in a sense that you either accept the concept that a state is capable of "terrorism" (or) if you reject that concept,like the USA and Israel do, then the likes of Ton Ton Macoute, the SS, the ISI were not terrorists! This has nothing to do with genocide or wishing all Jews were dead as the idiotic Mrr T is desperately trying to assert wrongly.

[Mrr T]

allnighter said:

And where did I state genocide you fool? Comprehension of the English language is not your forte is it now? Go on then, search some more and find where I accused Israel of genocide, or where I stated that I'd be happy if the majority if not all Jews were dead.See I bolded the key words for you to help you out.If I were you I'd stop posting on PH altogether because you are making yourself look more and more stupid!

So your defense is you did not actually include the word "genocide" in the 2 of your many posts on the tread I could be bothered to look up. You limited yourself to accusing Israel of "forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing", "crimes against humanity" and "It (Zionism)was/is no different to a white supremacist ideology: Racist to the core".

I do find your posts amusing.

[AW111]

I have stayed out of this thread for a hundred or so pages, but here I am again

Grum, saying that the Nazis did X and the IDF are also doing X is not accusing the IDF of being Nazis. Or are we not allowed to make the obvious comparisons?

I know you claim to be or have been in the military, so you seem to see military action as the only solution to the problem : most soldiers I have met seem to advocate military action as the solution to all the worlds problems; but the only lasting solution to this mess will be a political one - do you agree?

[allnighter]

Mrr T said:

So your defense is you did not actually include the word "genocide" in the 2 of your many posts on the tread I could be bothered to look up. You limited yourself to accusing Israel of "forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing", "crimes against humanity" and "It (Zionism)was/is no different to a white supremacist ideology: Racist to the core".

I do find your posts amusing.

Forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians who ended up as refugees are historical facts and well documented and have nothing to do with genocide, how stupid can you get? Are you really that thick?

Crimes against humanity was in reference to the reckless shelling of a densely populated area like Gaza where fore than 2000 civilians died so far.

The Zionist ideology adopted by the state of Israel is racist and discriminatory against Palestinian Arabs. Are you denying that?

I am still waiting for your evidence that:

1.I accused Israel of genocide.

2. That I'd be happy if most (if not all) Jews were dead.



Failing to provide evidence, you will be admitting you were an imbecile for making those wild accusations.

Edited by allnighter on Monday 25th August 09:37

[anonymous-user]

It seems like allnighter has simply stated what is going on there. Those that are attacking him have made the connection between those facts and the term 'genocide' because that's what they interpret those actions to be.

[Mrr T]

allnighter said:

forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians who ended up as refugees are historical facts and well documented and have nothing to do with genocide, how stupid can you get? Are you really that thick?

Edited by allnighter on Monday 25th August 09:30

I would have said "forced expulsion and ethnic cleaning" would be clearly defined as genocide by Articles 2 of Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

[Mrr T]

allnighter said:

2. That I'd be happy if most (if not all) Jews were dead.

Edited by allnighter on Monday 25th August 09:37

Just to remind you of the cartoon I posted which started this exchange:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/branco-cartoo...

[zuby84]

Scuffers

With your own admission - it was this quote that you read and thought that it meant that Israel were being accused of converting everyone to Judaism?

"I feel similarly re the extreme right within Israel and especially re the extreme Zionist view which pursues a one State and worse, a one religion solution to the detriment and 100% exclusion of all others."

How many other people would read this quote and think that it was accusing Israel in trying to convert everyone to Judaism? It would be funny, if it wasn't so serious that people like you exist.

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

I have stayed out of this thread for a hundred or so pages, but here I am again

Grum, saying that the Nazis did X and the IDF are also doing X is not accusing the IDF of being Nazis. Or are we not allowed to make the obvious comparisons?

I know you claim to be or have been in the military, so you seem to see military action as the only solution to the problem : most soldiers I have met seem to advocate military action as the solution to all the worlds problems; but the only lasting solution to this mess will be a political one - do you agree?

Wasn't saying that at all, I was just pointing out that the use of the Nazi's, Gestapo and SS wasn't by accident. But as I said I don't want to get in the cross fire of this latest spat.

As for all the ex military people you know advocating force as the only answer, I can only assume they never went further than Salisbury Plain. When you see the results of violent action it does tend to put you off it a bit. Although that doesn't mean that I don't have enough brains to know that there are some people you can talk with and reason, whilst others will only comprehend brute force.

Did Hitler understand reasoned debate? No. He saw it as a weakness. How about Saddam Hussein? How about Slobodan Miloševic? You see what I mean? I don't exclude either option but am worldly enough to know when one wont work.

Small point, I don't claim to have been in the military, I was.

[allnighter]

Mrr T said:

allnighter said:

forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians who ended up as refugees are historical facts and well documented and have nothing to do with genocide, how stupid can you get? Are you really that thick?

Edited by allnighter on Monday 25th August 09:30

I would have said "forced expulsion and ethnic cleaning" would be clearly defined as genocide by Articles 2 of Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

The more you post crap the more you look stupid.


Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Now where did I accuse Israel of "Genocide" when I was talking about the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from their land who ended up as refugees and were never allowed back to their valleys and farms?

Now are you going to continue to make yourself stupid, or are you going to provide evidence of:

1. Me accusing Israel of "Genocide".

2. Me being happy that all or most Jews were dead.

Give us something with a bit of meat on, or hang your head in shame.

[Scuffers]

allnighter said:

Crimes against humanity was in reference to the reckless shelling of a densely populated area like Gaza where fore than 2000 civilians died so far.

sorry, where have you got this more than 2000 civilians bit from?

you know as well as I do that's the total number given out by the PA, and that at face value, even they do not even claim 2,000 of them were civilians.

in that number depending on who you want to believe, as many as 60-70% are Hamas/etc combatants, and that's before you question the totals with the amount of double counting etc that's going on.

(and I await your shrieking on about women and children!)

Look, can you please TRY and get some sense of proportion here, yes 2,000 people being killed is tragic, however, in the context of the shear amount of ordnance being thrown around, it's actually pretty amazingly low.

you accuse the IDF of indiscriminately bombing & shelling Gaza, but that claim just does not stand up with the numbers.

IF the IDF started to just drop 2,000lb JDAM's left right and centre, you would be looking at wiping out 10,000's at a time..

have you got *any* idea what a 2,000lb bomb can do?

If the IDF wanted to commit genocide as you all keep shrieking out, they could quite easily have done this on day 1.

Now, if you leave aside the political motivations just for a second and look at the IDF's actually record in terms of military precision etc, they have probably done better than *any* military in history.

whether you agree or disagree with their objectives is another matter.

[zuby84]

Whose military were you in Grumfutock?

[Slaav]

Mrr T said:

Just to remind you of the cartoon I posted which started this exchange:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/branco-cartoo...

Do you remember my very (in my view ) request that you confirm that this cartoon was not specifically aimed at me please? I did ask politely

[Mrr T]

Slaav said:

Do you remember my very (in my view ) request that you confirm that this cartoon was not specifically aimed at me please? I did ask politely

It was not aimed at you.