Israeli

[Grumfutock]

Scuffers said:

Look, can you please TRY and get some sense of proportion here, yes 2,000 people being killed is tragic, however, in the context of the shear amount of ordnance being thrown around, it's actually pretty amazingly low.

you accuse the IDF of indiscriminately bombing & shelling Gaza, but that claim just does not stand up with the numbers.

IF the IDF started to just drop 2,000lb JDAM's left right and centre, you would be looking at wiping out 10,000's at a time..

have you got *any* idea what a 2,000lb bomb can do?

If the IDF wanted to commit genocide as you all keep shrieking out, they could quite easily have done this on day 1.

Now, if you leave aside the political motivations just for a second and look at the IDF's actually record in terms of military precision etc, they have probably done better than *any* military in history.

whether you agree or disagree with their objectives is another matter.

And that goes back to what I said, god knows how many pages back, that people have been raised on Hollywood and believe that a bomb only kills, injures and damages the target. They take the term "smart bomb" literally.
If the IDF really wanted to shell the crap out of them they have 600 M109 artillery vehicles. These alone could level Gaza in 24 hours. And I mean level, as in dust, as in not one building left.

[allnighter]

Mrr T said:

allnighter said:

2. That I'd be happy if most (if not all) Jews were dead.

Edited by allnighter on Monday 25th August 09:37

Just to remind you of the cartoon I posted which started this exchange:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/branco-cartoo...

Why are you reminding me of your stupid cartoon?

Here is what you stated in case you forgot:

Mrr T said:

I never suggested you want all jews dead. I am sure you will be happy so long as as most of them are.

You were "sure" of your assertion, so all I am asking you is to provide evidence, and I mean concrete proof or quote where I stated that I "will be happy so long as most of them[Jews] are [dead]"

[allnighter]

Scuffers said:

allnighter said:

Crimes against humanity was in reference to the reckless shelling of a densely populated area like Gaza where fore than 2000 civilians died so far.

sorry, where have you got this more than 2000 civilians bit from?

you know as well as I do that's the total number given out by the PA, and that at face value, even they do not even claim 2,000 of them were civilians.

in that number depending on who you want to believe, as many as 60-70% are Hamas/etc combatants, and that's before you question the totals with the amount of double counting etc that's going on.

(and I await your shrieking on about women and children!)

Look, can you please TRY and get some sense of proportion here, yes 2,000 people being killed is tragic, however, in the context of the shear amount of ordnance being thrown around, it's actually pretty amazingly low.

you accuse the IDF of indiscriminately bombing & shelling Gaza, but that claim just does not stand up with the numbers.

IF the IDF started to just drop 2,000lb JDAM's left right and centre, you would be looking at wiping out 10,000's at a time..

have you got *any* idea what a 2,000lb bomb can do?

If the IDF wanted to commit genocide as you all keep shrieking out, they could quite easily have done this on day 1.

Now, if you leave aside the political motivations just for a second and look at the IDF's actually record in terms of military precision etc, they have probably done better than *any* military in history.

whether you agree or disagree with their objectives is another matter.

On page 289 allnighter already said:

Yes I would not expect anything less from a feral IDF cheerleader like yourself Scuffers, so excuse me if the rest of us do NOT share your undying passion for the best paid, best equipped, and best U.S supported terrorist organisation in the whole world, and yes you are consistent and keen on 'sugar-coating' everything the IDF do even when shamelessly bombing sleeping children, oh yes, I almost forgot, you call our reaction "think-of-the-childrenism", so yes carry in your misinformed, blinkered, drip fed, brain washed, ignorant and stupid interventions against anyone who 'dared' criticise your beloved terrorists, and conveniently ignore our equal condemnation of Hamas's targetting of Israeli civilians. You are truly pathetic, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

[AW111]

Grumfutock said:

Wasn't saying that at all, I was just pointing out that the use of the Nazi's, Gestapo and SS wasn't by accident. But as I said I don't want to get in the cross fire of this latest spat.

As for all the ex military people you know advocating force as the only answer, I can only assume they never went further than Salisbury Plain. When you see the results of violent action it does tend to put you off it a bit. Although that doesn't mean that I don't have enough brains to know that there are some people you can talk with and reason, whilst others will only comprehend brute force.

Did Hitler understand reasoned debate? No. He saw it as a weakness. How about Saddam Hussein? How about Slobodan Miloševic? You see what I mean? I don't exclude either option but am worldly enough to know when one wont work.

Small point, I don't claim to have been in the military, I was.

Thanks for the reply.

When I said "claim", that wasn't a dig at you, just that on t'internets, all anyone can do is claim to be something.

The issue here is that Israel also refuses to deal with reasoned debate : they just keep on building settlements and destroying Palestinian farms, so the Palestinians have decided that reasoned debate gets them nowhere, all that is left is armed struggle.
If Israel could convince the Palestinians that there is more to be gained by cooperation than conflict, it would go a long way towards solving the crisis, but they seem locked into a punishment mentality. If you have no hope of a better future, why not die fighting?

[Grumfutock]

zuby84 said:

Whose military were you in Grumfutock?

The British Army, although over the years I did a fair few jaunts with other countries forces. This helped me get a broader perspective on operations and to see from outside our eyes if you see what I mean.

Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 25th August 10:31

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

Thanks for the reply.

When I said "claim", that wasn't a dig at you, just that on t'internets, all anyone can do is claim to be something.

The issue here is that Israel also refuses to deal with reasoned debate : they just keep on building settlements and destroying Palestinian farms, so the Palestinians have decided that reasoned debate gets them nowhere, all that is left is armed struggle.
If Israel could convince the Palestinians that there is more to be gained by cooperation than conflict, it would go a long way towards solving the crisis, but they seem locked into a punishment mentality. If you have no hope of a better future, why not die fighting?

Seems to have worked for Hezbollah though? Simple truth, stop firing rockets/suicide bombing/murders and they, Israel, will sit down and talk. It worked with others so why not them?

The problem is that Hamas know only to well that they remain in power only so long as they can maintain Israel as the bad guy. They can only achieve this by provoking them in to bombing Gaza, which is the result of the missile attacks etc. Without this Hamas will lose the power and they do not want that. Big bloody circle.

[Alpinestars]

Joffery666 said:

Holocaust survivors and their descendants accuse ISRAEL/ZIONISTS of ‘genocide’

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

You'd have thought these people were better placed than most of us "debating" on this forum to make an assessment of what Israel is doing.

Many of the current supporters of Israel know better than someone who's lived through the holocaust and the current Israeli regime. They ignore the comments made by their leaders who created Israel who clearly knew they were displacing people from their land.

This survivor caused outrage when he compared Israel to the Nazi tactics. He says “It may be that Israel is not the most cruel country in the world … but one thing I know for sure is that Israel is the world champion in pretending to be civilised and cultured.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschw...

So the supporters of Israel actually feel they know more than the holocaust survivors, the Israeli leadership when it was created and ex IDF soldiers breaking the silence?

[AW111]

Grumfutock said:

Seems to have worked for Hezbollah though? Simple truth, stop firing rockets/suicide bombing/murders and they, Israel, will sit down and talk. It worked with others so why not them?

The problem is that Hamas know only to well that they remain in power only so long as they can maintain Israel as the bad guy. They can only achieve this by provoking them in to bombing Gaza, which is the result of the missile attacks etc. Without this Hamas will lose the power and they do not want that. Big bloody circle.

But Israel doesn't give any indication of being prepared to sit down and talk, do they?

[JensenA]

Suffers, your views, opinions and input to this thread, echo exactly the kind of views that are perpetuating this conflict. You can see absolutely no wrong in what Isreal is doing. You justify every single action that the IDF undertake, by trotting out the lines that Hammas is a terrorist organisation committed to the destruction of Israel, therefore the IDF/Israel have no option.
Let me give an example of the caring and humanitarian tactics employed by the IDF.
They receive intelligence reports that a Hammas member lives in Apartment 4 on street X in Gaza. They 'Roof knock' the apartment at 8 am in the morning. - if you don't know what 'roof knocking is, look it up - the inhabitants of that apartment, including the Hammas member, hastily evacuate the apartment . An hour after the 'roof knock' the apartment is obliterated by a missile strike. Can you imagine how the ordinary non Hammas occupants of that apartment feel towards Israel? I really can't imagine them saying 'Oh aren't the IDF wonderful, they let us know they were going to destroy our family home'. Those people have now lost everything.
The IDF also drop leaflets advising people that an air strike in area X is imminent, once again ordinary Palestinians are forced to evacuate just in case it is their apartment that is the target.
I guess your response will be "well if Hammas stopped firing rockets, the IDF would stop attacking"
Yes, maybe that would happen, but the Palestinians would still be living in a sthole, still,be totally dependant on Israel for food, water, power, raw materials, jobs, still have to accept the continued expansion of settlements into their territory, and still have to accept a life of a second class citizen in a land that used to belong to them.
Can you not for one single moment, accept that the attitude of Israel, and the actions of Israel have bred resentment amongst ordinary Palestinians, who in turn reluctantly turn to Hammas.
As an evil pro-Hammas supporter - well actually I'm a pretty normal guy with moderately right of centre political views, who merely sympathises with the plight of the ordinary Palestinian people, I acknowledge that Hammas are fundamentally a terrorist organisation, who control,much of the population by fear. But may draw an analogy to the way the Mafia operated in some cities in the USA. If you worked 'with' the Mafia you were safe, your family was safe, you had a job, a home, and could live in peace, you went along with it, it did not mean you supported the Mafia. And guess what, once the Mafia's influence was broken, you still had a job, a house, a life, and lived in peace.
Hammas does need to be broken, but killing civilians, building settlements, treating the Palestinians as second class citizens is not the way to break Hammas.
It is a vicious circle, and Israel, being the dominant and powerful state that it is, is the one that holds the power and the solution breaking the circle. Stop building settlements, flood Gaza and the West Bank with resources for building new houses, and infrastructure, give the Palestinian people some self respect, and Hammas' influence would soon wane.

Having said all that, I'm out of this thread, it's run it's course, and has descended into petty personal conflicts, with no party willing to modify their views just like Israel and Hammas!

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

Grumfutock said:

Seems to have worked for Hezbollah though? Simple truth, stop firing rockets/suicide bombing/murders and they, Israel, will sit down and talk. It worked with others so why not them?

The problem is that Hamas know only to well that they remain in power only so long as they can maintain Israel as the bad guy. They can only achieve this by provoking them in to bombing Gaza, which is the result of the missile attacks etc. Without this Hamas will lose the power and they do not want that. Big bloody circle.

But Israel doesn't give any indication of being prepared to sit down and talk, do they?

Pretty sure they have stated the conditions for talks are exactly that. Stop missiles/bombing/murders. Oh and the tunnels.

[AW111]

Grumfutock said:

Pretty sure they have stated the conditions for talks are exactly that. Stop missiles/bombing/murders. Oh and the tunnels.

But where is the carrot?
They are not even offering to stop expanding settlements, let alone start dismantling them.

To say "stop attacking us and we'll stop blowing your families to st" isn't enough : they need to offer something positive.
Israel, like Hamas, seem to be locked into some macho bullst where any concession to the other is seen as "losing". Until this attitude changes, there is no hope for peace.

[Scuffers]

JensenA said:

Suffers, your views, opinions and input to this thread, echo exactly the kind of views that are perpetuating this conflict. You can see absolutely no wrong in what Isreal is doing. You justify every single action that the IDF undertake, by trotting out the lines that Hammas is a terrorist organisation committed to the destruction of Israel, therefore the IDF/Israel have no option.

not at all.

you need to separate out the IDF from their political masters.

the IDF are doing what they are being asked to.

if you don't like this, then take it up with their political masters.

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

But where is the carrot?
They are not even offering to stop expanding settlements, let alone start dismantling them.

To say "stop attacking us and we'll stop blowing your families to st" isn't enough : they need to offer something positive.
Israel, like Hamas, seem to be locked into some macho bullst where any concession to the other is seen as "losing". Until this attitude changes, there is no hope for peace.

So let me ask you something. Why, when Egypt also impose closure of borders and restriction of trade, work, movement, do Hamas fire missiles at them? Because pissing them off wont help them stay in power.

[RedTrident]

So no apology from Mr T. Making false accusations of people and then continuing to throw more mud. He should be ashamed of himself. Even the likes of Scuffers aren't coming to his defence. That speaks volumes.

Mr T, you are a nasty man and add me to the list of people who will not be engaging in any form of dialogue with you.

[league67]

So claim by UN that 70% of murdered Palestinians are civilians now became that 70% are Hamas.

So far (and the list is not complete) the idoicy by supporters of terrorist IDF;

• calling Hamas murderous twunts and terrorists = die hard support for Hamas.
• Thomas Wictor, self-confessed mentally ill conspiracy theorist is used as an objective source.
• Illiterate moron knows more about Geneva Convention than bunch of human rights lawyers working for UN.
• turd accuses Washington Post of doctoring pictures to further anti-Zionist agenda without realising that pictures are from two different events. Priceless, but in keeping with 'We are the Victims' hit song performed by left-behinders. Furthermore, 'uncyclopedia' is used as an additional 'proof'.
• sado, who spent 20 years of his pathetic life being a cannon fodder because obvious lack of education and lack of any sign of intellect forced his career choice, can't understand that saying 'Allah something' is pretty stupid as as sign-off to atheists. Bless.
• Genocidal members of Knesset, who call for 'erasing Gaza', for declaring all Palestinians military targets and advocate killing of mothers and children as they are just 'little snakes', are not serious, they are just joking and they are not very relevant.
• 'Men on the motorcycle' is translated to 'militants on the motorcycle'.
• Hamas are forcing people to report civilian casualties, yet they themselves report when their commanders are killed, and when they kill civilians.

In the meantime, survivors of concentration camps are accusing Israeli government / IDF of ethnic cleansing and genocide. And they are the ones to know what they are taking about.
The same government that is begging US to help to avoid war crimes investigation.

It's understandable, why most ardent IDF apologists are also kippers. The victim card is there, it's always someone else fault, it's only us that see the truth, general lack of education and any cognitive abilities are all there. There are, as always, exceptions.

[AW111]

Grumfutock said:

So let me ask you something. Why, when Egypt also impose closure of borders and restriction of trade, work, movement, do Hamas fire missiles at them? Because pissing them off wont help them stay in power.

I will assume you meant to say "don't", in which case the answer is that Egypt is not the occupying power.

I ask again : has Israel offered any real concessions to the Palestinians beyond not killing them?

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Pretty sure they have stated the conditions for talks are exactly that. Stop missiles/bombing/murders. Oh and the tunnels.

Which Fatah have done. Along with lots of other preconditions imposed by Israel. Israel responded by saying Fatah doesn't speak for all the Palestinian people. So there was a Fatah/Hamas unity Govt. at which point Israel said they wouldn't negotiate with a terrorist organisation.

The cynical amongst us might suspect that Israel isn't really serious about negotiations and that, deep down, Netanyahu and Likud are conspiring to prevent any viable two state solution . I'm just surprised he's never admitted it.



Oh wait......

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

I will assume you meant to say "don't", in which case the answer is that Egypt is not the occupying power.

I ask again : has Israel offered any real concessions to the Palestinians beyond not killing them?

Sorry yes, typo.

No they haven't but why should they? They are the stronger power. It is all very well for people on here to say Israel should be the bigger person but try to see it from their eyes.

I am fairly sure that if we fell out with France about the Channel Island sand they started to lob missiles at us we wouldn't just sit back and say "Oh those crazy frogs"!

[Scuffers]

league67 said:

So claim by UN that 70% of murdered Palestinians are civilians now became that 70% are Hamas.

you have claimed over 2000 civilians, back that statement up?

the reality is that we will probably never have anything like an accurate breakdown as the lists are compiled by PA (Hamas) the UN are just repeating them.

people have already shown some glaring inconsistencies in the lists, like one Hamas Policeman listed as a 13 year old boy etc.

As I ahve said god know how many times already, every death is a tragedy, but can you please get some proportion into your hysterical rants?

if you want to talk about genocide, look over the border in Syria/Iraq where everything is happening, from chemical weapons to ritual slaughter, but then again, that does not fit with your anti-zionist agenda does it?

you keep accusing me of being a horrible man, err... yea right.

for the record, I do not support anybody, I am just sick and tired of all the media manipulation and lying.

[AW111]

Grumfutock said:

Sorry yes, typo.

No they haven't but why should they? They are the stronger power. It is all very well for people on here to say Israel should be the bigger person but try to see it from their eyes.

I am fairly sure that if we fell out with France about the Channel Island sand they started to lob missiles at us we wouldn't just sit back and say "Oh those crazy frogs"!

We have been posting at each other tit-for-tat and disagreeing for half a dozen or more posts without insulting each other once : are we on the wrong thread?

I'm off to do something else non-constructive : bye for now.