Israeli

[TheRealFingers99]

avinalarf said:

So you equate the IDF ,the army of Israel,defending it's country and attacking the enemy,equal to Hamas an organisation that denies Israel's right to exist.

A point that needs to be made is that Israel has no right to exist. Essentially you have a UN decision (and the UN hate Israel?) imposed on the Palestinians, followed by a series of land grabs which breach the UN decision.

To be sure, an accommodation has to acknowledge Israel. But a right to exist?

[league67]

Chlamydia said:

With statements like the one made by League67, above, I'd say that goes for both sides of the argument. Just for your information, League67, some people see serving in the UK Armed Forces as a privilege and it doesn't follow that only people with a "lack of any sign of intellect" enlist. How about you stop with the personal insults?

You have this weird obsession with me like few other posters where you follow me on different threads with your opinions that nobody relevant really cares about. I never said that everyone who enlists is stupid. A lot of people do it as the only choice available to them. In my book you'd have to be pretty stupid to spend 20 years 'following orders' when you are not required to defend your own country, or if you are not planing on being next Norman Schwarzkopf.

Would you say that 'a die hard supporter of Hamas' is an insult to someone who openly states that they are terrorists and murderers? I'd say that that's much worse, but this is internet, and unless you are very sensitive flower you get over it.

Chlamydia indeed.

edit: STD spelling.

Edited by league67 on Monday 25th August 17:12

[enioldjoe]

allnighter said:

enioldjoe said:

allnighter said:

Alpinestars said:

Joffery666 said:

Holocaust survivors and their descendants accuse ISRAEL/ZIONISTS of â??genocideâ??

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

You'd have thought these people were better placed than most of us "debating" on this forum to make an assessment of what Israel is doing.

Many of the current supporters of Israel know better than someone who's lived through the holocaust and the current Israeli regime. They ignore the comments made by their leaders who created Israel who clearly knew they were displacing people from their land.

This survivor caused outrage when he compared Israel to the Nazi tactics. He says “It may be that Israel is not the most cruel country in the world … but one thing I know for sure is that Israel is the world champion in pretending to be civilised and cultured.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschw...

So the supporters of Israel actually feel they know more than the holocaust survivors, the Israeli leadership when it was created and ex IDF soldiers breaking the silence?

Indeed, something in the article reminded me exactly of what's going with the Pro-Israel contributors who won't hesitate to tell lies on here just like Israel's propaganda machine to divert attention from the real issues associated with the conflict.

“Hajo knows that Israel has a long history of abusing the tragic history of the Holocaust in order to suppress legitimate criticism of its own crimes.

“Especially since Gaza, people are no longer taken in by their claim that anyone that criticises Israel is anti-Semitic.”

I was always the one to jump on anyone who displayed a slight tendency to anti-Semitism on here and I did that on at least three occasion in this thread IIRC, and obviously that was deliberately ignored by one poster on here who was allegedly "sure" that I will be happy so long as most Jews are dead.

If these are the kind of punching below the belt debating techniques that are being utilised on here by the likes of Mrr T to obfuscate any criticism directed at Israel, then this proves they are uneasy with the truth and more at ease in their imaginary comfort zone that Israel is the caring mother of all democracies, and the IDF are the little cupids of love and tenderness.

That's rather ironic considering it was you who diverted attention away from the real issue behind the conflict as raised by 'fesuvious' on page 53 of this thread!

All I stated was that Islam bashing should be done in another thread. The conflict is not about religion. Religion is just an identifier and people are tribal by nature and will fight over any excuse. In this case it's about land.

As anyone can read for themselves, no 'bashing' was intended and no inflammatory language was used. You chose to use the term 'bashing'.

You are of course correct when you say it's about land though. I'll add , it's about Holy land. And Islam *has* to get it back.

[Alpinestars]

Grumfutock said:

Your mistaking attitude for amazement and disbelief.

Ok, my mistake.

Are you going to ignore the questions I asked and perhaps address the amazement of the testimonies of hundreds, yes HUNDREDS of IDF soldiers?

Interestingly I don't think a single poster has addressed the comments made by Ben Gurion either.

[league67]

avinalarf said:

So you equate the IDF ,the army of Israel,defending it's country and attacking the enemy,equal to Hamas an organisation that denies Israel's right to exist.

I like your selective quoting, I'll take that you agree with everything else apart from the above.

Do I equate army who managed to kill 70% civilians while 'defending it's country' with terrorists? Are they terrorizing civilians of Gaza? Did they kill 12 year old near West Bank, and not in response to any rockets? I've posted the link by IDF general who says that all Palestinians are valid targets, and members of Knesset who, direct what IDF will do, are calling for 'erasing of Gaza', who are stating that not enough snakes are killed. That water and electricity should be restricted. That wife and four year old child of Hamas terrorist are valid targets? Do I call people like that terrorists? Is that a serious question?

[TheRealFingers99]

enioldjoe said:

You are of course correct when you say it's about land though. I'll add , it's about Holy land. And Islam *has* to get it back.

Why? Just as most Jews are not radical Zionists, let alone radical believers, most Palestinians are not radical Muslims.

Anyway Jerusalem is only 3rd in the hierarchy of Muslim holy cities (after Mecca and Medina).

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 25th August 17:23

[Grumfutock]

Alpinestars said:

Grumfutock said:

Your mistaking attitude for amazement and disbelief.

Ok, my mistake.

Are you going to ignore the questions I asked and perhaps address the amazement of the testimonies of hundreds, yes HUNDREDS of IDF soldiers?

Interestingly I don't think a single poster has addressed the comments made by Ben Gurion either.

And what does that tell you? That whatever a man said before he died in 1973 isn't really that relevant to 2014, hence both sides have ignored it.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

And what does that tell you? That whatever a man said before he died in 1973 isn't really that relevant to 2014, hence both sides have ignored it.

Moshe Feiglin, the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and a member of the governing Likud party, “What is required now is that we internalise the fact that the Oslo [accord] is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.

“There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.”

Sounds very like the Begin doctrine. At least he isn't stating, a la Meir, that there are no Palestinians..........

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Moshe Feiglin, the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and a member of the governing Likud party, “What is required now is that we internalise the fact that the Oslo [accord] is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.

“There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.”

Sounds very like the Begin doctrine. At least he isn't stating, a la Meir, that there are no Palestinians..........

Oh OK then. No problem.

Halil Al-Hayya in 2010:

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

Mahmoud Al-Zahhar in 2010:

"We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital – but without recognizing [Israel]. This is the key – without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land...

"Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is [to have] Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "


To be honest we could do this all day.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

To be honest we could do this all day.

Which surely makes Begin's doctrine relevant to the problem, to the understanding, if not to the solution (which will have to recognise some form of Israeli state)?

[Alpinestars]

Grumfutock said:

And what does that tell you? That whatever a man said before he died in 1973 isn't really that relevant to 2014, hence both sides have ignored it.

Both sides? I think the pro Israeli side has continued to ignore it because it's too close to the truth for them and his views couldn't possible be endorsed by a "democratic" society. So is what he did also irrelevant? Are Hitler and the Nazis irrelevant on the basis that he and most of his motley crew are dead. What a bizarre line of thought.

Also you've still not addressed the HUNDREDS of IDF soldiers on "breaking the silence". Are they relevant?

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Are they being bombed? No. Why? Because they aren't firing big, hairy arsed rockets at Israel every 5 minutes! Fatah are enjoying their best relationship with Israel for over a decade. Why? Because they aren't blowing up buses in Israel! They have even been given weapons and ammunition by Israel, hardly the sort of thing enemies normally do is it?
s.

Fantastic reasoning. By your logic the Israelis could lock up every Palestinian and say "you've never had it so good. At least your entire family hasn't been wiped out as a result of our carefully targeted bombings. You should be grateful!!"

Just to clarify - the "best ever relationship" means absolutely zero progress in peace talks, at least a dozen announcements of Settlement building, and an open admission by Netanyahu that there will never be a viable two state solution. The zionists will never permit a one state solution so effectively it means the Palestinians living in enclosed settlements, effectively Gaza x 20.

But hopefully with effective PR, combined with revisionist historians, nobody will remember the situation in a hundred years time.

[zuby84]

Countdown said:

But hopefully with effective PR, combined with revisionist historians, nobody will remember the situation in a hundred years time.

Anyone with any sense knows that this is exactly what Israel's main tact is. Just like how Zionist apologists are quietly sweeping the Zionist terrorists' atrocities in the mid 1900's under the carpet and saying "it's no longer relevant to this current situation."

Like I've said before; credit where credit is due - Israel has perhaps staged the biggest PR coup in history over the last 50 years?

[enioldjoe]

"Effective PR and revisionist historians"

Just a general point but amidst the constant accusations and 'facts' being hurled about from both camps it's worth standing back and considering which of the two sides in this conflict would be more likely to (need to) use PR, revisionism and propaganda and so on to achieve their goal?

The side with the far greater military superiority or the side who cannot reasonably be expected to win a conventional war?

Wouldn't the less powerful militarily be more likely to attempt a 'conceptual genocide' against their enemy, perpetrating a delegitimization of the opponent through 'effective PR and revisionist historians' etc as a forerunner to denying them a future in their land?

[Countdown]

Israel is achieving what it wants by dint of its military superiority. It needs the PR to brush over / dismiss / excuse the fact that it is killing hundreds, if not thousands of civilians, not necessarily right now but during the next few years and decades so that it can legitimise its occupation.

[Alpinestars]

zuby84 said:

Anyone with any sense knows that this is exactly what Israel's main tact is. Just like how Zionist apologists are quietly sweeping the Zionist terrorists' atrocities in the mid 1900's under the carpet and saying "it's no longer relevant to this current situation."

A dead man can't talk so all his acts and comments are not relevant. Even the "founder" and first prime minister of Israel.

[TheRealFingers99]

enioldjoe said:

"Effective PR and revisionist historians"

Just a general point but amidst the constant accusations and 'facts' being hurled about from both camps it's worth standing back and considering which of the two sides in this conflict would be more likely to (need to) use PR, revisionism and propaganda and so on to achieve their goal?

The side with the far greater military superiority or the side who cannot reasonably be expected to win a conventional war?

Wouldn't the less powerful militarily be more likely to attempt a 'conceptual genocide' against their enemy, perpetrating a delegitimization of the opponent through 'effective PR and revisionist historians' etc as a forerunner to denying them a future in their land?

The side with least right to the land, surely, would want to use PR?

Israel could win militarily in a nanosecond (or a couple of months using conventional weapons). It will not because it needs to keep "the West" on side. Hence the slow erosion and the PR budget.

Al Jazeera's documentary on Al Nakba (a Palestinian documentary, but stuffed full of Israeli and Jewish historians) gives good background.

[Grumfutock]

Alpinestars said:

Both sides? I think the pro Israeli side has continued to ignore it because it's too close to the truth for them and his views couldn't possible be endorsed by a "democratic" society. So is what he did also irrelevant? Are Hitler and the Nazis irrelevant on the basis that he and most of his motley crew are dead. What a bizarre line of thought.

Also you've still not addressed the HUNDREDS of IDF soldiers on "breaking the silence". Are they relevant?

OK I will skip over the bit where you said "Interestingly I don't think a single poster has addressed the comments made by Ben Gurion either." I apologise as I took "not a single poster" to mean not a single poster.

Are the Nazis relevant to what's happening in Gaza in 2014? I don't think so, perhaps you can explain the relevance?

Ref the HUNDREDS of ex IDF. Can you provide a link to these HUNDREDS of statements and I will happily take a look. Once done I will report back with my thoughts on the relevance.

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Fantastic reasoning. By your logic the Israelis could lock up every Palestinian and say "you've never had it so good. At least your entire family hasn't been wiped out as a result of our carefully targeted bombings. You should be grateful!!"

Just to clarify - the "best ever relationship" means absolutely zero progress in peace talks, at least a dozen announcements of Settlement building, and an open admission by Netanyahu that there will never be a viable two state solution. The zionists will never permit a one state solution so effectively it means the Palestinians living in enclosed settlements, effectively Gaza x 20.

But hopefully with effective PR, combined with revisionist historians, nobody will remember the situation in a hundred years time.

And as always you change the reality of what was said and put words into peoples mouths. And as usual you cherry pick the quote and ignore the rest of it.

I will also ask you the question that I asked earlier:

"How would you of done it? Be so kind as to educate us all on how you would of dealt with suicide bombings? With the tunnels? With the kidnapping and murders? How, exactly, would you of reacted to 3,000 missiles being shot at your country? Pray enlighten us!"

[Grumfutock]

zuby84 said:

Countdown said:

But hopefully with effective PR, combined with revisionist historians, nobody will remember the situation in a hundred years time.

Anyone with any sense knows that this is exactly what Israel's main tact is. Just like how Zionist apologists are quietly sweeping the Zionist terrorists' atrocities in the mid 1900's under the carpet and saying "it's no longer relevant to this current situation."

Like I've said before; credit where credit is due - Israel has perhaps staged the biggest PR coup in history over the last 50 years?

Yep, all the terrorist acts since 48 have been by those evil Zionists! Get real.