Discussion
Grumfutock said:
Not really. I just see it from the Israeli point of view. Simples.
As long as people like you and Scuffers keep defending the indefensible and pretending that Israel genuinely wants peace this situation isn't going to resolve itself.But hey-ho, what's another thousand dead palestinians every 2 or 3 years?
league67 said:
Like understanding how stupid is to use 'think of the children' idiocy in context of this thread, or learning the difference between 'your' and 'you are'.
and, like magic, the blinkered pedant is back with his sad little line.(which is even funnier when you realise the mistake on my part was actually Autocorrect on my tablet!)
No matter though, I am sure you will cling on to this for eternity!
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Not really. I just see it from the Israeli point of view. Simples.
As long as people like you and Scuffers keep defending the indefensible and pretending that Israel genuinely wants peace this situation isn't going to resolve itself.But hey-ho, what's another thousand dead palestinians every 2 or 3 years?
Scuffers said:
and, like magic, the blinkered pedant is back with his sad little line.
(which is even funnier when you realise the mistake on my part was actually Autocorrect on my tablet!)
No matter though, I am sure you will cling on to this for eternity!
All the more impressive when it isn't his first of four languages. (which is even funnier when you realise the mistake on my part was actually Autocorrect on my tablet!)
No matter though, I am sure you will cling on to this for eternity!
Scuffers said:
that Israel stole the palestinians land.
I'd say that's the primary reason (excuse?). You can always argue that the Arabs never wanted an Israel in the first place. Why the hell should they?Scuffers said:
it's just a little bit more complex than that.
Some arabs were paid a lot of money for land that was questionably theirs to start with, and at the time, the descendants of what we now call palestinians were nowhere near what is now Israel/Gaza, they were mostly between what is now the west bank and Jordan.
I've no doubt that some cunning tricks were played by those nasty, nasty, nasty Arabs (substitute Gypsies/Jews to meet your favourite racial stereotype) to get money. It happens, it happened. But it's a tiny part of the real picture.Some arabs were paid a lot of money for land that was questionably theirs to start with, and at the time, the descendants of what we now call palestinians were nowhere near what is now Israel/Gaza, they were mostly between what is now the west bank and Jordan.
People living in Palestine = Palestianians. Do you comprehend that? This is Meir's horses
t. Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Christians, Palestinian Druze, Palestinian Berber, Palestinian Gypsies. Not a land without people for a people without land. Scuffers said:
the descendants of what we now call palestinians were nowhere near what is now Israel/Gaza, they were mostly between what is now the west bank and Jordan.
It hardly matters whether you're living on that bit of land. It's either your land or it isn't. Haifa? Jafa? Acre? Tiberius? We're not talking small villages here, but major cities. Around a million refugees. Stuffed in horrible camps since 1948. No right of return, while anyone of Jewish descent can claim Israeli citizenship and move in.Note, incidentally, that the UN "gave" Gaza to the Palestinians.
Scuffers said:
But, let's not a few important bit's of history get in the way of the cries of GENOCIDE etc.
So, you're denying Deir Yassin (where the Israelis even exaggerated the number of deaths to scare others out of their villages), the whole Nakba? Did the genocide occur or not? Scuffers said:
you only have to watch the Youtube vid of the UN school in Gazza to see how this re-writing of history is going to perpetuate the war for at least the next generation if not longer, well done the UN!
Ah, the UN that was the subject of targeted Israeli assassinations? You don't post an url to the vid. If you do, I'll watch it. In the meantime you might return the favour and watch the Al Jazeera documentary Al Nakba -- plenty of torrents out there -- (and, since you earlier denied the cluster bombings, Jawad Metni's wonderful Remnants of a War).
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Tuesday 26th August 17:05
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Tuesday 26th August 18:05
Scuffers said:
Now, I am not suggesting Israel are totally blameless or whiter than white in any of this, however, you really need to step back and look at the bigger picture....
You keep prattling on about the "World view", the "bigger picture". I've asked you before to elucidate what you mean. You never have. Ever. Scuffers said:
SR7492 said:
LOL
That is rich coming from you
and you wonder why I (and others) CBA to discuss this with you.That is rich coming from you
at least I have the integrity to get basics like dates right, you kind of have to realise that details are important in a world full of propaganda and bulls
t, you on the other hand seen quite happy to jump in with half-cut rhetoric and bullst dressed up like it's all hard done by Palestinians because of the Evil Israelis.Now, I am not suggesting Israel are totally blameless or whiter than white in any of this, however, you really need to step back and look at the bigger picture....
One of the problems you have is 'nit-picking'. If I was to say "there were hundreds of people in the pub" you would deny it and ask me how many 100's. And If I didn't know, you'd accuse me of being unaware of the facts and therefore not to be believed.
The IDF are pretty brutal in the way they act, and you can never see that such actions is responsible for many civilian deaths.
Edited for I-pad induced spelling corrections. Grrrr
Edited by JensenA on Tuesday 26th August 17:12
TwigtheWonderkid said:
SR7492 said:
I don't know if you are just plain stupid or ignorant. Israel holds all the cards; so who has to give up first?
When I play cards, and I have 4 aces, and I know my opponent has jack st, I tend not to fold. Maybe I'm playing wrong?However, he's about to loose some of his cards (sanctions against Israel, a possible US president who will stand up to him, growing disquiet within the diaspora and even the IDF, elections in Israel) and the elephants in the corner are ISIS itself and Arab armies re-armed by the West to take on ISIS.
SR7492 said:
Countdown said:
As long as people like you and Scuffers keep defending the indefensible and pretending that Israel genuinely wants peace this situation isn't going to resolve itself.
But hey-ho, what's another thousand dead palestinians every 2 or 3 years?
Well said!But hey-ho, what's another thousand dead palestinians every 2 or 3 years?
Countdown and others genuinely believe that Israel does not want peace. I respect that view, but I do not agree with it. I think Israel does want peace, but just not on any terms. I think Israel sees its own security as paramount, and will do almost anything to secure this.
Its a tragedy that in pursuing that aim, Israel has begun to become the very monster that it was set up to protect its people from. "peace" has been on the table many times, and on each occasion one side or the other has sabotaged things or walked away for seemingly spurious reasons.
Israel has to be stopped. Hamas has to be stopped. The Arabs have to be stopped. Pretending that this only an Israeli issue is not going to lead to peace.
So many lives lost, it boggles the mind that the parties find it so hard to even accept that each has the right to exist in peace and security.
I am so glad that I stepped back a little from this thread and am now only reading it! (Doh!!!!)
May I just suggest that people read and follow the links - on both sides; as it really has given me a much better understanding of the conflict and the history surrounding it - both recent and a little further back I have also actually started reading way more than the stuff on this thread and some of the characters in years gone by, their actions (on both sides) and their ideologies leave a little to be desried. Having said that, one or two are nowhere near as bad as some on here would have you believe - again, on both sides of the argument.
I do draw the line at some of the more ancient history on both sides though as it all sounds a little like my own RC upbringing - i.e. did it happen? Was it a parable? Or is it an accurate Historical record etc.?
And on a lighter note, has anyone seen the 'Book of Mormon' on the West End Stage yet? If so, you will get what I mean
May I just suggest that people read and follow the links - on both sides; as it really has given me a much better understanding of the conflict and the history surrounding it - both recent and a little further back
I have also actually started reading way more than the stuff on this thread and some of the characters in years gone by, their actions (on both sides) and their ideologies leave a little to be desried. Having said that, one or two are nowhere near as bad as some on here would have you believe - again, on both sides of the argument.I do draw the line at some of the more ancient history on both sides though as it all sounds a little like my own RC upbringing - i.e. did it happen? Was it a parable? Or is it an accurate Historical record etc.?
And on a lighter note, has anyone seen the 'Book of Mormon' on the West End Stage yet? If so, you will get what I mean
SR7492 said:
Countdown said:
As long as people like you and Scuffers keep defending the indefensible and pretending that Israel genuinely wants peace this situation isn't going to resolve itself.
But hey-ho, what's another thousand dead palestinians every 2 or 3 years?
Well said!But hey-ho, what's another thousand dead palestinians every 2 or 3 years?
Oh and I note that moments before the latest ceasefire came into effect the terrorists fire another mortar, wouldn't be trying to provoke Israel into breaking the ceasefire at all would they! Oh those poor terrorists! Why does everybody pick on them.
Grumfutock said:
Oh and I note that moments before the latest ceasefire came into effect the terrorists fire another mortar,
Rather like the Israeli cluster bombing of Lebanon, then? Sheer bloody minded spite. Wonder which killed the most people? (I'll give you a clue -- the Israeli bomblets killed more de-miners than the Hamas(?) mortar killed people.)Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Tuesday 26th August 18:19
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
Oh and I note that moments before the latest ceasefire came into effect the terrorists fire another mortar, wouldn't be trying to provoke Israel into breaking the ceasefire at all would they! Oh those poor terrorists! Why does everybody pick on them.
Rather like the Israeli cluster bombing of Lebanon, then? Sheer bloody minded spite. Wonder which killed the most people? (I'll give you a clue -- the Israeli bomblets killed more de-miners than the Hamas(?) mortar killed people.)Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Tuesday 26th August 18:19
Note: I have edited it so the whole post is visible.
Edited by Grumfutock on Tuesday 26th August 18:36
Grumfutock said:
OK I must of missed that one on the BBC? When was this? As far as I know they haven't used any cluster munitions?
Note: I have edited it so the whole post is visible.
Va bene. UN report. As you don't like the UN, here's a IDF commander in Haaretz. Also the Jawad Metni film Remnants of a War -- which doesn't really deal with the politics, but the effects and the lives of the de-miners. Note: I have edited it so the whole post is visible.
Edited by Grumfutock on Tuesday 26th August 18:36
2006 -- not Gaza, but arguably the same conflict. Same spite. And while the IDF have not used any recently, they've certainly used white phosphorous in Gaza.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Tuesday 26th August 18:57
TheRealFingers99 said:
Va bene. UN report. As you don't like the UN, here's a IDF commander in Haaretz. Also the Jawad Metni film [http://www.cultureunplugged.com/documentary/watch-online/play/3889/Remnants-of-a-War]Remnants of a War[/url] -- which doesn't really deal with the politics, but the effects and the lives of the de-miners.
2006 -- not Gaza, but arguably the same conflict. Same spite.
Oh so a different war, in a different decade, in a different place and against a different enemy?2006 -- not Gaza, but arguably the same conflict. Same spite.
I think you can see where I am going with this one. Oh and it wasn't in the last seconds before the cease fire was it.
And being completely pedantic it was legal to use them then and Israel have never signed the CCM as haven't half the planet.
Edited by Grumfutock on Tuesday 26th August 19:07
TheRealFingers99 said:
you can use google can't you?
Look it up and see why it's fiction, it's pretty well documented.
I'm not going to comment any more, it's pretty obvious you're too blinkered/gullible/stupid to begin to understand the region, and I (with others) are just wasting our time trying to get you to learn.
Scuffers said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
you can use google can't you?
Look it up and see why it's fiction, it's pretty well documented.
I'm not going to comment any more, it's pretty obvious you're too blinkered/gullible/stupid to begin to understand the region, and I (with others) are just wasting our time trying to get you to learn.
I have read enough comments to now realise that this topic is going nowhere.
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