Discussion
Countdown said:
The thing is they haven't always lived there. They have only become the majority in Israel as a result of massive immigration, which, in turn led to forced displacement of the Palestinians. Palestine pre-1948 wasn't an unpopulated area waiting to be filled.
And yet that is the Israelis fault? They stole it? This VERY old victim card is always played. Blame the UN, Blame the British, Blame the pogroms of Eastern Europe of the 1880s, blame the Kishinev riot of 1903, blame the Russian October revolution and the Balfour declaration, blame the anti Semitism of Europe in the 30's, blame the rise the Nazis in the late 30's, blame World War 2 but you cant blame Israel for 1948!As a small point of order, I think the Kingdom of Judah & the Kingdom of Israel both established in 930 BC or how about the United Monarchy 1030 BC all of which may pre date Hamas and the Palestinians by a couple of years.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Ayahuasca said:
The Israelis want (need?) to be a majority in their territory for obvious reasons, and they want (need?) sufficient space to accomodate any Jewish people who may wish to settle in Israel (every Jew has the right to do so under Israeli law) but given those constraints they are perfectly willing to live together with non-Jewish people in the same land.
But how do you square that with a right of return for Palestinians? Non Jewish people can be a majority in the West Bank, Gaza and any other agreed non-Israeli territory.
Ayahuasca said:
Prior to the dissolution on the British Mandate in 1948 the Zionists were perfectly willing to partition the land into a mainly Jewish state and a mainly non-Jewish state, with shared access to Jerusalem i.e. to live in peace with their non-Jewish neighbours. It was the Arabs who rejected this, believing that they would simply crush Israel, which unfortunately for them they failed to do.
How does this explain the Zionist terrorism prior to the end of the British mandate? There were undoubtedly Zionist terrorists prior to the end of the Mandate. The British did themselves no favours by restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine at a time when Jews were desperate for a safe haven, and some Jews took things to extremes, but it was never Zionist policy.
Ayahuasca said:
Another often overlooked point is that the Jewish settlers (Zionists) did not take over land from non-Jewish people except in the wars that were started by the Arabs. They BOUGHT the land. Who sold it to them? The Arabs.
This is a history that was taught to Israeli children 20 years or so ago. It bears little resemblance to what really happened. But, again, quote your sources. Countdown said:
Ayahuasca said:
But that is not what Zionism is about. The Israelis want (need?) to be a majority in their territory for obvious reasons, and they want (need?) sufficient space to accomodate any Jewish people who may wish to settle in Israel (every Jew has the right to do so under Israeli law) but given those constraints they are perfectly willing to live together with non-Jewish people in the same land.
Ok. How will they have a Jewish majority if they annexe the West Bank? Short of carrying out ethnic cleansing? With regards to them being happy to live with non-Jewish people on the same land there are numerous restrictions placed on israeli Arabs both in Israel and in the WB.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-arabs...
http://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building/20140...
Ayahuasca said:
Incidentally they don't base their arguments on 'God promised it to us' but rather 'we have always lived here', same as the Arabs.
The thing is they haven't always lived there. They have only become the majority in Israel as a result of massive immigration, which, in turn led to forced displacement of the Palestinians. Palestine pre-1948 wasn't an unpopulated area waiting to be filled.There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. The vast majority of Jews were probably quite happy living outside Palestine, but repression in Russia, Poland and Germany forced them to flee or die. But there was nowhere to flee to. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never. In Biblical times the Arabs shared the land with Jews and other tribes, more or less peacefully, then the Romans ruled, then the Arabs ruled from Mecca (Jews were still OK with that), then the Crusaders ruled and massacred the Jews, then the Mamluks took over, then for half a millenium Palestine belonged to the Turks. It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
Ayahuasca said:
Israeli should not annex the WB. It only captured the WB in the first place because Arab armies attacked Israel and lost the war they had started.
There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. The vast majority of Jews were probably quite happy living outside Palestine, but repression in Russia, Poland and Germany forced them to flee or die. But there was nowhere to flee to. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never. In Biblical times the Arabs shared the land with Jews and other tribes, more or less peacefully, then the Romans ruled, then the Arabs ruled from Mecca (Jews were still OK with that), then the Crusaders ruled and massacred the Jews, then the Mamluks took over, then for half a millenium Palestine belonged to the Turks. It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
Mate I support you 100% with this. I have tried and tried to explain WHY Israel act the way they do using history, both old and recent, to explain it but sadly that doesn't work on here. Israel are judged by their action today, no excuses, no reasons will suffice. History is irrelevant (unless used to explain a Hamas action) so I wish you luck.There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. The vast majority of Jews were probably quite happy living outside Palestine, but repression in Russia, Poland and Germany forced them to flee or die. But there was nowhere to flee to. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never. In Biblical times the Arabs shared the land with Jews and other tribes, more or less peacefully, then the Romans ruled, then the Arabs ruled from Mecca (Jews were still OK with that), then the Crusaders ruled and massacred the Jews, then the Mamluks took over, then for half a millenium Palestine belonged to the Turks. It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
PS. You will be a Zionist sympathiser within 2 days and as guilty as the murdering Zionist scum and by day 3 a f
kwit and retard if posts follow their usual pattern. 
There was a you tube clip that distills the current conflict to its essence. The summary was:
1) What would happen if the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow?
2) What would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?
In one case, the result would be a bloodbath, in the other case it would be peace. Have a guess which is which.
In case there is any doubt, here is a quote from one of the most moderate recent Arab leaders, the late King Hussain of Jordan: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your hands, with your nails and teeth".
1) What would happen if the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow?
2) What would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?
In one case, the result would be a bloodbath, in the other case it would be peace. Have a guess which is which.
In case there is any doubt, here is a quote from one of the most moderate recent Arab leaders, the late King Hussain of Jordan: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your hands, with your nails and teeth".
Ayahuasca said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Ayahuasca said:
The Israelis want (need?) to be a majority in their territory for obvious reasons, and they want (need?) sufficient space to accomodate any Jewish people who may wish to settle in Israel (every Jew has the right to do so under Israeli law) but given those constraints they are perfectly willing to live together with non-Jewish people in the same land.
But how do you square that with a right of return for Palestinians? Non Jewish people can be a majority in the West Bank, Gaza and any other agreed non-Israeli territory.
Ayahuasca said:
Prior to the dissolution on the British Mandate in 1948 the Zionists were perfectly willing to partition the land into a mainly Jewish state and a mainly non-Jewish state, with shared access to Jerusalem i.e. to live in peace with their non-Jewish neighbours. It was the Arabs who rejected this, believing that they would simply crush Israel, which unfortunately for them they failed to do.
How does this explain the Zionist terrorism prior to the end of the British mandate? There were undoubtedly Zionist terrorists prior to the end of the Mandate. The British did themselves no favours by restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine at a time when Jews were desperate for a safe haven, and some Jews took things to extremes, but it was never Zionist policy.
Ayahuasca said:
Another often overlooked point is that the Jewish settlers (Zionists) did not take over land from non-Jewish people except in the wars that were started by the Arabs. They BOUGHT the land. Who sold it to them? The Arabs.
This is a history that was taught to Israeli children 20 years or so ago. It bears little resemblance to what really happened. But, again, quote your sources. Ayahuasca said:
Sources - just a fair bit of reading. 'Whose Land' by Guernsey historian and clergyman James Parkes for example.
Parkes died in 1981. At best, he was an "Independent Historian", not an academic. This isn't to rule out/dismiss everything he did and wrote (he was, after all, a vocal anti-semite and anti-nazi), but for a more modern appraisal of the Nakba you might look at Rosemarie Esber's "Under the Cover of War: The Zionist Expulsion of the Palestinians". Modern histories make absolutely clear that the expulsions started prior to the end of the mandate. Al Jazeera's documentary Al Nakba even points out that the day of the end of the mandate was fudged so that it didn't occur on the sabbath.
Ayahuasca said:
There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
And the same restrictions apply to those who fight for the IDF! Only following the Intefada did Jumblatt call on Israeli Druze to resist the draft.Ayahuasca said:
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
Some Jews have always lived in Palestine. The Balfour declaration never, ever, had the weight of law. It was a pretext then, a pretext now.Ayahuasca said:
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never.
Except under the mandate. Ayahuasca said:
It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
Granted. Nor was it a land without people for a people without land.Ayahuasca said:
There was a you tube clip that distills the current conflict to its essence. The summary was:
1) What would happen if the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow?
2) What would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?
In one case, the result would be a bloodbath, in the other case it would be peace. Have a guess which is which.
In case there is any doubt, here is a quote from one of the most moderate recent Arab leaders, the late King Hussain of Jordan: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your hands, with your nails and teeth".
I doubt that a laying down of arms on one side represents a realistic solution, or You Tube a sensible source.1) What would happen if the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow?
2) What would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?
In one case, the result would be a bloodbath, in the other case it would be peace. Have a guess which is which.
In case there is any doubt, here is a quote from one of the most moderate recent Arab leaders, the late King Hussain of Jordan: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your hands, with your nails and teeth".
Ayahuasca said:
Israeli should not annex the WB. It only captured the WB in the first place because Arab armies attacked Israel and lost the war they had started.
The fact is that Israel IS annexing the West Bank, little by little, acre by acre. And despite numerous people suggesting this isn't a good idea and against international law, Israel continues apace. And the next time it kicks off, Israel will plead innocence. Again.And, for what it's worth, the Arabs didn't start the 1967 war.
Ayahuasca said:
There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
I've yet to see a more bonkers justification for a system of apartheid. You seem to be suggesting that it's OK to treat the 1m plus Israeli arabs as second class citizens because some of them might be Hamas? Hamas was founded in 1987 - any ideas why the Israeli arabs were prevented from building properties before then? Ayahuasca said:
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. The vast majority of Jews were probably quite happy living outside Palestine, but repression in Russia, Poland and Germany forced them to flee or die. But there was nowhere to flee to. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
As has been said repeatedly, Balfour had no more right to promise them anything than I have of promising your house to somebody else. With regards to there being nowhere for them to flee, yes there was. Many moved to the UK and the US. Palestine wasn't their only refuge, although it may have been the most convenient one from the Allies perspective.Ayahuasca said:
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never. In Biblical times the Arabs shared the land with Jews and other tribes, more or less peacefully, then the Romans ruled, then the Arabs ruled from Mecca (Jews were still OK with that), then the Crusaders ruled and massacred the Jews, then the Mamluks took over, then for half a millenium Palestine belonged to the Turks. It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
It is just as accurate to say that the Jews never lived in a Jewish country called Israel. Regardless, no one religion has the right to say "This is my land" and kick the others out.TwigtheWonderkid said:
Countdown said:
What about the non-Arab world?
Parliaments & democracy take a combination of time,
And still you criticise Israel's democracy as not being perfect, despite the country only being 66 yrs old.Parliaments & democracy take a combination of time,
Point is, it bears no real resemblance to a western democracy. A Shin Bet operative writes in the JP.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Wednesday 3rd September 21:09
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Countdown said:
What about the non-Arab world?
Parliaments & democracy take a combination of time,
And still you criticise Israel's democracy as not being perfect, despite the country only being 66 yrs old.Parliaments & democracy take a combination of time,
Countdown said:
Ayahuasca said:
But that is not what Zionism is about. The Israelis want (need?) to be a majority in their territory for obvious reasons, and they want (need?) sufficient space to accomodate any Jewish people who may wish to settle in Israel (every Jew has the right to do so under Israeli law) but given those constraints they are perfectly willing to live together with non-Jewish people in the same land.
Ok. How will they have a Jewish majority if they annexe the West Bank? Short of carrying out ethnic cleansing? With regards to them being happy to live with non-Jewish people on the same land there are numerous restrictions placed on israeli Arabs both in Israel and in the WB.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-arabs...
http://www.btselem.org/planning_and_building/20140...
Ayahuasca said:
Incidentally they don't base their arguments on 'God promised it to us' but rather 'we have always lived here', same as the Arabs.
The thing is they haven't always lived there. They have only become the majority in Israel as a result of massive immigration, which, in turn led to forced displacement of the Palestinians. Palestine pre-1948 wasn't an unpopulated area waiting to be filled.enioldjoe said:
Actually, they have. There has always been a population of Jews in the Land as recorded in Turkish, Mameluke, Byzantine, Crusader history. True, they haven't always been in Jerusalem, at times being restricted to Galilee but there has always a remnant in the Land. Furthermore Israel is the only Independent Political Nation to have existed in the Land ( others who had were colonies of somewhere else.)
But if my ancestors lived 1000 years ago in -- let's say -- Uzbekistan and there were Uzbekistanis related to my ancestors still living there, would that give me and my relatives some right of return? Ayahuasca said:
Israeli should not annex the WB. It only captured the WB in the first place because Arab armies attacked Israel and lost the war they had started.
There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. The vast majority of Jews were probably quite happy living outside Palestine, but repression in Russia, Poland and Germany forced them to flee or die. But there was nowhere to flee to. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never. In Biblical times the Arabs shared the land with Jews and other tribes, more or less peacefully, then the Romans ruled, then the Arabs ruled from Mecca (Jews were still OK with that), then the Crusaders ruled and massacred the Jews, then the Mamluks took over, then for half a millenium Palestine belonged to the Turks. It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
Did mankind exist before Abraham and Moses? I'd imagine so. There are restrictions on Arab Israelis because sadly some of them are Hamas etc.
Jews have always lived in Palestine (well, as long as the non-Jews). They originated there, their capital was Jerusalem, but the majority were kicked out by successive invaders. A small number have always lived there. The vast majority of Jews were probably quite happy living outside Palestine, but repression in Russia, Poland and Germany forced them to flee or die. But there was nowhere to flee to. They believed that the UK governmet had promised them a homeland in Palestine (Balfour Declaration) so they naturally immigrated to Palestine, their ancestral home.
On the other hand the Arabs have NEVER lived in an Arab country called Palestine. Never. In Biblical times the Arabs shared the land with Jews and other tribes, more or less peacefully, then the Romans ruled, then the Arabs ruled from Mecca (Jews were still OK with that), then the Crusaders ruled and massacred the Jews, then the Mamluks took over, then for half a millenium Palestine belonged to the Turks. It was never an autonomous Palestinian state.
Were those predecessors Jewish? No I don't think so.
So would it be ok if those "non jews" decided to return to their "homeland" by displacing the current population?
Ayahuasca said:
There was a you tube clip that distills the current conflict to its essence. The summary was:
1) What would happen if the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow?
2) What would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?
In one case, the result would be a bloodbath, in the other case it would be peace. Have a guess which is which.
In case there is any doubt, here is a quote from one of the most moderate recent Arab leaders, the late King Hussain of Jordan: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your hands, with your nails and teeth".
Rubbish.1) What would happen if the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow?
2) What would happen if the Palestinians laid down their arms tomorrow?
In one case, the result would be a bloodbath, in the other case it would be peace. Have a guess which is which.
In case there is any doubt, here is a quote from one of the most moderate recent Arab leaders, the late King Hussain of Jordan: "Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your hands, with your nails and teeth".
The Israelis like to peddle this myth, i.e. they are only after peace. Nothing can be further from the truth. The reality is what we have seen in Gaza and now the land grab of 400 hectares in the West Bank. The current government and it's predecessor has perpetuated conflict after conflict so that they can justify stealing more and more land. I find your surmising the 'bloodbath' rather ironic considering the massive number of deaths suffered by the Gaza in the highly disproportionate and frankly brutal war waged by Israel.
If Israel had any intention of peace, they would have seriously acted upon the various resolutions which have required them to remove their illegal settlements in the West Bank. Of course, they never have been serious, and consequently, the settlement program has increased in pace over the last few years.
All that Israel has achieved in this war is to increase support for Hamas in Gaza, massively.
I'm not sure what your alleged quote of King Hussein has anything to do with this issue, since, a) he's dead and b) he's Jordanian.
968 said:
the massive number of deaths suffered by the Gaza in the highly disproportionate and frankly brutal war waged by Israel.
Civilian deaths - on either side - are obviously tragic and regrettable, so I am genuinely interested in what you would do -if you had the power - right now, to stop Hamas launching missiles at Israel?
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