Israeli

[allnighter]

Grumfutock said:

Yes he is my twin brother! I am the one on the right!

I hate you for it but you did make me laugh!

[avinalarf]

TheRealFingers99 said:

avinalarf said:

Schmeckels,a firm favourite of meshuganas like you who are totally fercockt.

Thanks. Must try it on your mum! Sure she'd enjoy it!

Yes Fingers sounds just like your sort of treat,a bit of necrophilia,my dear mother has been dead for 25 years.

[avinalarf]

zuby84 said:

There's no point guys. Somewhere in the backwaters of Afghanistan, there's a village idiot defending the actions of Al Qaeda using the same logic as Grumfutock.

Same type of person, just different villages....

You've finally got it.
In Afghanistan,the USA,the UK,Europe,Africa,Asia,,all over the bloomin World there are people that are defending their country or town or village by fair means or foul and the Israelis and Palestinians are no different.
This Topic proves one thing,people seeing the same problem but having a totally different subjective vision of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

[allnighter]

avinalarf said:

zuby84 said:

There's no point guys. Somewhere in the backwaters of Afghanistan, there's a village idiot defending the actions of Al Qaeda using the same logic as Grumfutock.

Same type of person, just different villages....

You've finally got it.
In Afghanistan,the USA,the UK,Europe,Africa,Asia,,all over the bloomin World there are people that are defending their country or town or village by fair means or foul and the Israelis and Palestinians are no different.
This Topic proves one thing,people seeing the same problem but having a totally different subjective vision of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

Blimey! 100% in agreement!

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Actually, to the Mosad assassinations of Iranian scientists. You'll discover that the bombing was actually condemned by the UN.

So what? The Yanks bombed Libya in 1986 and killed 75 people. Are they terrorists? The Brits killed 25 in Sierra Leonne in 2000. Are they Terrorists? Russia has just shot down an airline (allegedly) killing 283 people. Are they terrorists? So Israel killed some people? Big deal. ALL nations do it but nobody jumps on the band wagon about that do they? Why do you consider Israel to be held to a higher standard?

I'm talking about the murder of citizens of other countries in other countries by trained assassins. AFAIK (call me innocent) this is an activity practised only by the Russia and Israel (as states) currently. The Russian assassination of Alexander Litvinenko has been widely condemned and is the subject on an ongoing police enquiry.

For the rest, the Libyan bombing was condemned (albeit by leftists) at the time, the Ukrainian evidence is that separatists were responsible but that the actual target was unintended, and I can't remember the Sierra Leonne thing at all.

TheRealFingers99 said:

WTF have Hamas (more murdering bds) have to do with Israeli assassinations (except against Hamas), settler violence, attacks in the Lebanon?

I'm loosing count of the number of times I've attacked Hamas. What you refuse to do is to criticise Israel.

Because you seem to think that Israeli attacks are some sort of barbaric, unprovoked attack. I point out the Hamas ones in the vain hope of trying to point out to you that they are generally a response to attacks by terrorists. Hence the recent war!!! This really shouldn't be that hard to follow mate!

What have the settler actions to do with the recent war? What has the assassination of Iranian scientists to do with the recent war? What have the listening devices in Lebanon to do with the recent war? What have the plans to build new settlements to do with the recent war? What has the great land grab to do with the recent war?

I don't think anyone wants Israel to be anything other than a good neighbour. To obey UN resolutions (remember, it holds the record for breaking them), to stop acting like the town bully -- like a rogue state.

[TheRealFingers99]

avinalarf said:

Yes Fingers sounds just like your sort of treat,a bit of necrophilia,my dear mother has been dead for 25 years.

I fail to see what your recipe for Kosher sausage rolls has to do with necrophilia. Have you been taking your medication?

[TheRealFingers99]

avinalarf said:

It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

I suggested SA style "peace and reconciliation" for the Palestinian/Israeli question about 20 pages ago.

It's not copyright.

You never know.

[Slaav]

allnighter said:

avinalarf said:

zuby84 said:

There's no point guys. Somewhere in the backwaters of Afghanistan, there's a village idiot defending the actions of Al Qaeda using the same logic as Grumfutock.

Same type of person, just different villages....

You've finally got it.
In Afghanistan,the USA,the UK,Europe,Africa,Asia,,all over the bloomin World there are people that are defending their country or town or village by fair means or foul and the Israelis and Palestinians are no different.
This Topic proves one thing,people seeing the same problem but having a totally different subjective vision of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

Blimey! 100% in agreement!

It also needs a de Klerk!

A man who could be described as a turkey voting for Christmas.... But he knew it was the right thing yo do!

[allnighter]

TheRealFingers99 said:

I don't think anyone wants Israel to be anything other than a good neighbour. To obey UN resolutions (remember, it holds the record for breaking them), to stop acting like the town bully -- like a rogue state.

Exactly, and in honouring the memory of the 64 million poor Jews who paid with their lives, Israel should know better than cause death and destruction every few years and act as a proxy recruitment agency for Hamas and the likes.
The idiocy of the politicians in charge of such a powerful country lies in the lack of vision and initiative. You can only kill Hamas and the support for its leadership by being fair with the Palestinians and giving them back what's rightfully theirs. The bitterness and the grudge will disappear after a couple of generations. The foundations need to be laid first. The last person who tried that was killed, and maybe the next one will survive to tell the tale.

Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 10th September 23:45

[allnighter]

Slaav said:

allnighter said:

avinalarf said:

zuby84 said:

There's no point guys. Somewhere in the backwaters of Afghanistan, there's a village idiot defending the actions of Al Qaeda using the same logic as Grumfutock.

Same type of person, just different villages....

You've finally got it.
In Afghanistan,the USA,the UK,Europe,Africa,Asia,,all over the bloomin World there are people that are defending their country or town or village by fair means or foul and the Israelis and Palestinians are no different.
This Topic proves one thing,people seeing the same problem but having a totally different subjective vision of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

Blimey! 100% in agreement!

It also needs a de Klerk!

A man who could be described as a turkey voting for Christmas.... But he knew it was the right thing yo do!

De Klerk was a clever leader, a rare breed indeed.

[peterpeter]

allnighter said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

I don't think anyone wants Israel to be anything other than a good neighbour. To obey UN resolutions (remember, it holds the record for breaking them), to stop acting like the town bully -- like a rogue state.

Exactly, and in honouring the memory of the 64 million poor Jews who paid with their lives, Israel should know better than cause death and destruction every few years and act as a proxy recruitment agency for Hamas and the likes.
The idiocy of the politicians in charge of such a powerful country lies in the lack of vision and initiative. You can only kill Hamas and the support for its leadership by being fair with the Palestinians and giving them back what's rightfully theirs. The bitterness and the grudge will disappear after a couple of generations. The foundations need to be laid first. The last person who tried that was killed, and maybe the next one will survive to tell the tale.

Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 10th September 23:45

quite honestly the only thing needed to be said on this thread...

[Mrr T]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Mrr T said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Israel did show some restraint. They could easily have nuked Gaza. Or saturated the place with cluster munitions, white phosphorous, etc. Nevertheless, I'd atgue that they did not keep to their obligations regarding non-combatants and may have used illegal weaponry again.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east...

What obligations to non combatants under international law have they not kept. Please explain, I cannot not see any obvious examples.

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter1_rule1

"Rule 1. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilians and combatants. Attacks may only be directed against combatants. Attacks must not be directed against civilians."

Of course, both sides ignored Rule 1.

Did you actually read the link you provided. As far as I know the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has no status to set international law.

International law can only be established by treaties between countries. For example the Ottawa Treaty bans the use on anti personal mines by the signatures to the treaty. You should notice Israel and the US are not signatories to the treaty so it does not apply to them. Further, as with most treaties there are no provision for any sort of international prosecution of a Treaty signature who breaks the treaty.

So the ICRC does not approve the use of these weapons but as I said they are not banned under any recognised international law.

[Mrr T]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Mrr T said:

Genocide is a crime but I note the UK and the US managed to deliberately wipe out up to 1m non combatants in WW2 and no one was prosecuted.

Winner's justice? I'd view both as war crimes.

So in all seriousness you think Truman and Churchill should have been procecuted for War Crimes? This does explain a lot of your views. Personally I would rather not have lived in the UK under Nazi rules maybe it would not have bother you.

Edited by Mrr T on Thursday 11th September 08:57

[Mrr T]

TheRealFingers99 said:

You can't find one! And, I wasn't adding the photo from Sabra/Shatila for effect, but for accuracy. It was yet another Israeli atrocity, for which Amos Yaron is, I believe, still facing war crimes charges.

"The UN commission led by MacBride concluded that the massacre was a form of genocide.[17] In 1983, the Israeli Kahan Commission, appointed to investigate the incident, found that Israeli military personnel, aware that a massacre was in progress, had failed to take serious steps to stop it. The commission deemed Israel indirectly responsible," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_mas...

The massacre is the subject of the Israeli film Waltz with Bashir

Mrr T said:

I note he is facing charges in Belgium and has even been convicted I believe in Malaysia.

However, no charges under international law have ever been brought.

Yet!

Although Amos Yaron was doubtless a guilty party, note that he was charged and convicted jointly with the State of Israel:

"THE KUALA LUMPUR WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL
20 – 25 NOVEMBER 2013
Case No. 3 – CHG – 2013

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission
Against
Amos Yaron
Case No. 4 – CHG – 2013

The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission
Against
The State of Israel"

See for example and note:

“The perpetrators [State of Israel] had committed acts against the Palestinians, with intent to kill, cause serious bodily or mental harms and deliberately inflict conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the Palestinians as a whole or in part.”

“The Tribunal recommends to the War Crimes Commission to give the widest international publicity to this conviction and grant of reparations, as these are universal crimes for which there is a responsibility upon nations to institute prosecutions.

The Tribunal deplores the failure of international institutions to punish the State of Israel for its crimes and its total lack of respect of International Law and the institutions of the United Nations.”

So what authority does a organisation set up by a Malaysian politician have to try international war crimes. You really are getting desperate.

[avinalarf]

TheRealFingers99 said:

avinalarf said:

Yes Fingers sounds just like your sort of treat,a bit of necrophilia,my dear mother has been dead for 25 years.

I fail to see what your recipe for Kosher sausage rolls has to do with necrophilia. Have you been taking your medication?

Yes Fingers,still on the medication,thank you for your concern.

[avinalarf]

TheRealFingers99 said:

avinalarf said:

It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

I suggested SA style "peace and reconciliation" for the Palestinian/Israeli question about 20 pages ago.

It's not copyright.

You never know.

You may well have done.
BUT rather than extrapolate on that theme you and several others have spent most of this topic arguing,mainly with Grumfutock about who has the most just cause,the Israelis or the Palestinians.
Now you and others are quite entitled to discuss that subject but it will not help solve the problem.
The more one goes down that path the more likely opinions will become entrenched,tempers will flare,insults will be shared and we will achieve nothing.
I have observed the anti Israeli demonstrations that have been hi jacked by the more extreme demonstrators.
They carry foul and disgusting anti Israel and anti Jewish messages that simply inflame passions.
How much more effective if the organisers disowned those extremists and carried banners praying for peace and reconciliation.

[allnighter]

avinalarf said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

avinalarf said:

It takes a very special person like Mandela,who was himself once classed as a terrorist, to have the strength and integrity to cast aside the years of mistrust,bloodshed and historical enmity and a find peaceful solution to what appears an intractable problem.
Both Israel AND the Palestinians need two such people to help them out of this tragic conflict.

I suggested SA style "peace and reconciliation" for the Palestinian/Israeli question about 20 pages ago.

It's not copyright.

You never know.

You may well have done.
BUT rather than extrapolate on that theme you and several others have spent most of this topic arguing,mainly with Grumfutock about who has the most just cause,the Israelis or the Palestinians.
Now you and others are quite entitled to discuss that subject but it will not help solve the problem.
The more one goes down that path the more likely opinions will become entrenched,tempers will flare,insults will be shared and we will achieve nothing.
I have observed the anti Israeli demonstrations that have been hi jacked by the more extreme demonstrators.
They carry foul and disgusting anti Israel and anti Jewish messages that simply inflame passions.
How much more effective if the organisers disowned those extremists and carried banners praying for peace and reconciliation.

I have no problem with anyone having an anti-Israel demonstration, or being anti-Israel on this thread. That is understandable seeing what Israel stands for at the moment, at least the Apartheid, and the illegal occupation of Palestinians territories aspects of it. However, I totally object to anyone hijacking that demonstration, or this thread to voice pure hatred for Jews and preach hatred against an ethnic group.
There were a couple of attempts at that on this thread, and most of us on both sides of the argument quickly condemned them without hesitation.
Yes this topic is a highly emotive one, and everyone gets passionate about what is the right thing to do, what was wrong about the history of the conflict and the injustices of third party decisions that led to this current mess, and why the cycle of violence continues to this day.
If you are expecting an unbiased discussion on this topic , you are frankly mistaken. Everybody is biased one way or another, even if they vocally claim they present are so-called balanced opinion on both sides of the conflict.
We all claim to be objective in our analysis, but our objectivity is ruled by how each one of us has been brought up, educated, and exposed to information on the conflict (and by who).

[avinalarf]

allnighter said:

I have no problem with anyone having an anti-Israel demonstration, or being anti-Israel on this thread. That is understandable seeing what Israel stands for at the moment, at least the Apartheid, and the illegal occupation of Palestinians territories aspects of it. However, I totally object to anyone hijacking that demonstration, or this thread to voice pure hatred for Jews and preach hatred against an ethnic group.
There were a couple of attempts at that on this thread, and most of us on both sides of the argument quickly condemned them without hesitation.
Yes this topic is a highly emotive one, and everyone gets passionate about what is the right thing to do, what was wrong about the history of the conflict and the injustices of third party decisions that led to this current mess, and why the cycle of violence continues to this day.
If you are expecting an unbiased discussion on this topic , you are frankly mistaken. Everybody is biased one way or another, even if they vocally claim they present are so-called balanced opinion on both sides of the conflict.
We all claim to be objective in our analysis, but our objectivity is ruled by how each one of us has been brought up, educated, and exposed to information on the conflict (and by who).

I would not expect an unbiased discussion on this or many other topics.
Almost all our opinions are formed by the influences you have stated.
However ones objectivity need not be influenced to the extent where reason becomes confused with that bias.
The continual bickering on this Topic by those with very entrenched opinions has simply led to discord.
Arguments on both sides of the bias have been repeated many times and just led nowhere.
When one reads or hears many of the comments passed on this Topic on this forum and on TV,radio and press it is no wonder that the status quo remains roughly the same.
What has been is gone,what may be is the future.
I understand that most of us on this forum wish for a just and lasting peace for the Israelis and Palestinians.
Learning from history is of course very important,that alone however will not lead to a solution.

[TheRealFingers99]

Mrr T said:

So in all seriousness you think Truman and Churchill should have been procecuted for War Crimes? This does explain a lot of your views. Personally I would rather not have lived in the UK under Nazi rules maybe it would not have bother you.

There are certainly some acts committed by "the winners" which, to my mind, might justify prosecution. Whether a conviction would ensue is a different matter.

For example, the fire bombings of Dresden and Essen, the fire bombing of Tokyo, the A bombs.

I can't see that the results of not carrying out any of these would have been the UK under Nazi rule.

[allnighter]

Meanwhile, strange going-ons with the PA, as Abbas alledgedly blocks ICC application, and Al-Jazeera investigation reveals he's not done enough to give the ICC jurisdiction in Gaza to investigate possible war crimes which could incriminate both Hamas and Israel.
Now is Abbas being shrewd, or self serving by giving more importance to the phenomenon of the surge in Hamas's popularity after the recent conflict and the need to shift attention to himself by blocking a possible ICC investigation and using accession to the ICC as a bargaining chip with Israel when demanding its withdrawal to its '67 borders, thus achieving heroic status and side-lining Hamas altogether? Or is he being corrupt, jumping in bed with Netanyahu and sticking to his game plan to undermine Hamas at all costs even if it meant the poor Palestinians, who were never blessed with great leaders, will end up losing out? Again?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/09/i...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-hearst/abbas-b...