Discussion
I hadn't seen that list no, sounds like there are some very powerful films there.
What I found interesting about this documentary was that it was the real words of real people who were/are directly involved in the conflict, intelligent people who have seen the results of their actions and their opponents' actions. The general consensus was there is no military solution, that each little 'victory' on the 'battlefield' is only a victory in itself but a failure when the effects are considered. It is evident that more people think that the last Israeli leader to take peace seriously was Rabin, he paid for that with his life.
And then the talk of 'occupation' and comparison of the Israeli state with the Nazis, comparing the treatment of occupied nations in WW2 to the treatment of the Palestinians, how the Israelis have grown to be cruel and by hurting others they are hurting themselves.
It was good that the documentary did not glorify the Palestinian militants or the Palestinian s
t stirrers (merde de la merde, to quote one of the Shin Bet heads).
So much of the content of the documentary, the questions, the sentiment, the doubt, the hopes, the fears have been raised on this very thread - it's interesting to see that this is echoed by those directly involved on the Israeli side.
What I found interesting about this documentary was that it was the real words of real people who were/are directly involved in the conflict, intelligent people who have seen the results of their actions and their opponents' actions. The general consensus was there is no military solution, that each little 'victory' on the 'battlefield' is only a victory in itself but a failure when the effects are considered. It is evident that more people think that the last Israeli leader to take peace seriously was Rabin, he paid for that with his life.
And then the talk of 'occupation' and comparison of the Israeli state with the Nazis, comparing the treatment of occupied nations in WW2 to the treatment of the Palestinians, how the Israelis have grown to be cruel and by hurting others they are hurting themselves.
It was good that the documentary did not glorify the Palestinian militants or the Palestinian s
t stirrers (merde de la merde, to quote one of the Shin Bet heads).So much of the content of the documentary, the questions, the sentiment, the doubt, the hopes, the fears have been raised on this very thread - it's interesting to see that this is echoed by those directly involved on the Israeli side.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Whereabouts is that?
(I've got the transcript somewhere as the subtitles).
The BBC discussion is on I Player (for the next 5 days, I think).
Around 20 mins in i think when discussing the deaths of the terrorist post the bus hijack. Let me know if you need me to find it?(I've got the transcript somewhere as the subtitles).
The BBC discussion is on I Player (for the next 5 days, I think).
That would be Avraham Shalom: lots of contention about who killed the prisoners, the failed cover up, the Israeli Attorney General's resignation after chasing Shalom, the pardons, Yitzak Shamir's authorisation, etc.
The transcript goes:
Interviewer: Please describe what happened that evening. You got a call and were told a bus was hijacked?
Shalom: I don't remember. I was in Haifa. Yes, and... They said, "A bus was hijacked. Come." So I went.
[reconstructed footage]
Shalom: The army handled it. During the operation, they killed two, and two came out unharmed. I didn't know that then. They beat the daylights out of them, the two of them. So the Shin Bet took them... I asked Ehud, the Head of Operations, what state were they in. He said they were almost dead. Maybe the soldiers said so. So I said, "Hit them again and finish it." He didn't do that. He did what he described, which I found out a year later.
Interviewer: What did he do?
Shalom: I think he took a rock and smashed their heads in, but they were unconscious. I don't know what state they were in.
Interviewer: The photo showed them before they were beaten up.
Shalom: The army pounced on them. The photo was taken before that. It's not how they looked when we got them.
Interviewer:How did they look?
Shalom: I don't know, but some thought they were dead. They broke their bones. It was a lynching.
Interviewer:You didn't physically see them?
Shalom: I didn't see them.
The transcript goes:
Interviewer: Please describe what happened that evening. You got a call and were told a bus was hijacked?
Shalom: I don't remember. I was in Haifa. Yes, and... They said, "A bus was hijacked. Come." So I went.
[reconstructed footage]
Shalom: The army handled it. During the operation, they killed two, and two came out unharmed. I didn't know that then. They beat the daylights out of them, the two of them. So the Shin Bet took them... I asked Ehud, the Head of Operations, what state were they in. He said they were almost dead. Maybe the soldiers said so. So I said, "Hit them again and finish it." He didn't do that. He did what he described, which I found out a year later.
Interviewer: What did he do?
Shalom: I think he took a rock and smashed their heads in, but they were unconscious. I don't know what state they were in.
Interviewer: The photo showed them before they were beaten up.
Shalom: The army pounced on them. The photo was taken before that. It's not how they looked when we got them.
Interviewer:How did they look?
Shalom: I don't know, but some thought they were dead. They broke their bones. It was a lynching.
Interviewer:You didn't physically see them?
Shalom: I didn't see them.
TheRealFingers99 said:
That would be Avraham Shalom: lots of contention about who killed the prisoners, the failed cover up, the Israeli Attorney General's resignation after chasing Shalom, the pardons, Yitzak Shamir's authorisation, etc.
The transcript goes:
Interviewer: Please describe what happened that evening. You got a call and were told a bus was hijacked?
Shalom: I don't remember. I was in Haifa. Yes, and... They said, "A bus was hijacked. Come." So I went.
[reconstructed footage]
Shalom: The army handled it. During the operation, they killed two, and two came out unharmed. I didn't know that then. They beat the daylights out of them, the two of them. So the Shin Bet took them... I asked Ehud, the Head of Operations, what state were they in. He said they were almost dead. Maybe the soldiers said so. So I said, "Hit them again and finish it." He didn't do that. He did what he described, which I found out a year later.
Interviewer: What did he do?
Shalom: I think he took a rock and smashed their heads in, but they were unconscious. I don't know what state they were in.
Interviewer: The photo showed them before they were beaten up.
Shalom: The army pounced on them. The photo was taken before that. It's not how they looked when we got them.
Interviewer:How did they look?
Shalom: I don't know, but some thought they were dead. They broke their bones. It was a lynching.
Interviewer:You didn't physically see them?
Shalom: I didn't see them.
That's the baby The transcript goes:
Interviewer: Please describe what happened that evening. You got a call and were told a bus was hijacked?
Shalom: I don't remember. I was in Haifa. Yes, and... They said, "A bus was hijacked. Come." So I went.
[reconstructed footage]
Shalom: The army handled it. During the operation, they killed two, and two came out unharmed. I didn't know that then. They beat the daylights out of them, the two of them. So the Shin Bet took them... I asked Ehud, the Head of Operations, what state were they in. He said they were almost dead. Maybe the soldiers said so. So I said, "Hit them again and finish it." He didn't do that. He did what he described, which I found out a year later.
Interviewer: What did he do?
Shalom: I think he took a rock and smashed their heads in, but they were unconscious. I don't know what state they were in.
Interviewer: The photo showed them before they were beaten up.
Shalom: The army pounced on them. The photo was taken before that. It's not how they looked when we got them.
Interviewer:How did they look?
Shalom: I don't know, but some thought they were dead. They broke their bones. It was a lynching.
Interviewer:You didn't physically see them?
Shalom: I didn't see them.
It is a little known fact that a British Army officer trained the Haganah in effective but very ruthless guerilla techniques. Google 'Orde Wingate'. His methods were so brutal and controversial that he was removed from Palestine pretty quickly, but his methods stuck. He went on to became a general.
I heard (double take) the news the other night about the aid pledgeed to hamas to help rebuild Gaza.
the final sentence from the newsreader was something like "isreal have said rebuilding operations in Gaza can start but only if Israel allows it..."
something akin to that - am i missign something here? is this subject to border controls over supplies / materials or something more akin to command and control during a ceasefir eand rebuilding operation?
confused....
the final sentence from the newsreader was something like "isreal have said rebuilding operations in Gaza can start but only if Israel allows it..."
something akin to that - am i missign something here? is this subject to border controls over supplies / materials or something more akin to command and control during a ceasefir eand rebuilding operation?
confused....
is this subject to border controls over supplies / materials or something more akin to command and control during a ceasefir eand rebuilding operation?
Yes, there are border controls - however much of the concrete went to build tunnels and not buildings!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kImtp0shzhY
Phil
Yes, there are border controls - however much of the concrete went to build tunnels and not buildings!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kImtp0shzhY
Phil
Grumfutock said:
No thanks. I have my opinion on the evils of Hamas and the Palestinians, as you have yours on Israel. We wont convince each other any more than there will be peace in the Middle East.
So you didn't even look at it? Give me a couple of weeks and I recon I can make an AAW (Anarchists Against the Wall) out of you.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 17th October 13:11
TheRealFingers99 said:
This may clarify things.
Israel have absolute control over the border crossings: the only other way is through tunnels (which Israel say they've destroyed).
didn't help massively as to why Israel want to control construction of materials through donated monies.Israel have absolute control over the border crossings: the only other way is through tunnels (which Israel say they've destroyed).
I can see they wouldn't want the materials to be used for tunnels that's obvious but can they hold siege over stuff they didn't fund or purchase?
Slaav said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Bl00dy hell..... I'm half way through this on iPlayer and it is enlightening! Truly!!!P
Ps not comfy with the 'I cannot remember that incident' when there appears almost perfect recall on most things
(understandable although that approach is with hindsight)Does anyone know if those shots are from Palestine or are they from the studio?
Nom de ploom said:
didn't help massively as to why Israel want to control construction of materials through donated monies.
I can see they wouldn't want the materials to be used for tunnels that's obvious but can they hold siege over stuff they didn't fund or purchase?
They're the occupying power, they can do exactly what they want (and usually do). I can see they wouldn't want the materials to be used for tunnels that's obvious but can they hold siege over stuff they didn't fund or purchase?
There's no viable port for Gazza, no airport, etc. Attempts to bring in aid by sea have been prevented by massive force. Israel has roads solely for the use of Israelis, checkpoints on all others, can ordain a curfew or a closure at the drop of a hat, can prevent the movement of people from the West Bank to Gazza and vice versa. This is pretty much the rationale for calling Israel an apartheid regime.
Even the evil old b
d Avraham Shalom, ex Haganah, ex head of Shin Bet, likened the situation to Nazi occupation of Holland, Belgium, etc. Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 17th October 15:01
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 17th October 15:01
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