Israeli

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

nitrodave said:

... and what about the border with Egypt? that has been shut and for good reasons. Hamas cannot be trusted, they lie, preach hatred, misuse foreign aid, put civilians in the line of fire.

I think that's more down to the fact that Al-Sissi doesn't want any of that new-fangled democracy raising its ugly head in Egypt again.

Or maybe it is because Hamas are part of the Muslim Brotherhood. A group ousted from power in Egypt and a group that have since attacked Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai (an area that conveniently borders Gaza) and is banned and illegal in Egypt. Maybe that is why the border is closed. Perhaps Al-Sissi doesn't want more terrorists attacks on his land?

[Mrr T]

Grumfutock said:

Countdown said:

nitrodave said:

... and what about the border with Egypt? that has been shut and for good reasons. Hamas cannot be trusted, they lie, preach hatred, misuse foreign aid, put civilians in the line of fire.

I think that's more down to the fact that Al-Sissi doesn't want any of that new-fangled democracy raising its ugly head in Egypt again.

Or maybe it is because Hamas are part of the Muslim Brotherhood. A group ousted from power in Egypt and a group that have since attacked Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai (an area that conveniently borders Gaza) and is banned and illegal in Egypt. Maybe that is why the border is closed. Perhaps Al-Sissi doesn't want more terrorists attacks on his land?

The democrats of the Muslim Brotherhood where also very support of a policy of raping and attacking non muslim women (or even muslim woman if not properly covered).

[Grumfutock]

Mrr T said:

Grumfutock said:

Countdown said:

nitrodave said:

... and what about the border with Egypt? that has been shut and for good reasons. Hamas cannot be trusted, they lie, preach hatred, misuse foreign aid, put civilians in the line of fire.

I think that's more down to the fact that Al-Sissi doesn't want any of that new-fangled democracy raising its ugly head in Egypt again.

Or maybe it is because Hamas are part of the Muslim Brotherhood. A group ousted from power in Egypt and a group that have since attacked Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai (an area that conveniently borders Gaza) and is banned and illegal in Egypt. Maybe that is why the border is closed. Perhaps Al-Sissi doesn't want more terrorists attacks on his land?

The democrats of the Muslim Brotherhood where also very support of a policy of raping and attacking non muslim women (or even muslim woman if not properly covered).

Yep these radical jihadist muslims are such lovable rogues aren't they. Such cheeky chappies.

[Countdown]

Mrr T said:

The democrats of the Muslim Brotherhood where also very support of a policy of raping and attacking non muslim women (or even muslim woman if not properly covered).

Was it really a policy? I suspect you're just making that up.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Or maybe it is because Hamas are part of the Muslim Brotherhood. A group ousted from power in Egypt and a group that have since attacked Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai (an area that conveniently borders Gaza) and is banned and illegal in Egypt. Maybe that is why the border is closed. Perhaps Al-Sissi doesn't want more terrorists attacks on his land?

Of course they're banned in Egypt. You do realise that Egypt is currently a military dictatorship, don't you?

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Grumfutock said:

Or maybe it is because Hamas are part of the Muslim Brotherhood. A group ousted from power in Egypt and a group that have since attacked Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai (an area that conveniently borders Gaza) and is banned and illegal in Egypt. Maybe that is why the border is closed. Perhaps Al-Sissi doesn't want more terrorists attacks on his land?

Of course they're banned in Egypt. You do realise that Egypt is currently a military dictatorship, don't you?

Not really a military dictatorship is it. The coup was at the behest of a massive slice of the people (22 million signed a petition and 14 million took to the streets demanding the government stood down). They also then held presidential elections in 2014 which were widely accepted as fair throughout the world.

Out of curiosity would you not class Hamas as a dictatorship? They haven't had an election in Gaza since 2006 and even that one has a hell of a lot of problems with it.

Edited by Grumfutock on Wednesday 22 October 13:01

[Mrr T]

Countdown said:

Mrr T said:

The democrats of the Muslim Brotherhood where also very support of a policy of raping and attacking non muslim women (or even muslim woman if not properly covered).

Was it really a policy? I suspect you're just making that up.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/opinion/burleigh-rapes-tahrir-square/

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Because they are terrorists. Because they are paid for and controlled by Iran who do not want a peaceful middle east. Because they are a racist and extremist Jihadist bunch of murdering nutters born from the Muslim Brotherhood. Because they know that peace means they loose power and therefore constantly provoke war.

Why do you think they are banned by Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt?

Israel are the terrorists. A state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing. A state which continues to illegally grab land. A state which holds the record for broken UN sanctions. A state which uses white phosphorous, flechettes, etc in civilian areas. A state which murders captured prisoners. A state which carries out assassinations overseas. A state supported and paid for by the world's largest imperial power, and so on.

I've established all that here, I'm happy to do so again, but I'd really, really, prefer it if you simply read the history. I can supply a reading list of good, honest Israeli historians -- the ones who've actually been through the Israeli archives.

Let's cut the rhetoric.

The current Israeli government does not want a peace, just a series of cease fires during which it can further encroach on the West Bank. They do not want Palestinian sovereignty, the return of the refugees, a viable Palestinian state. The best they'll offer is a Bantustan. Even Livni.

Given no viable moves by the occupying power toward a lasting solution (be it a two state or one state solution). given increasing settler violence what would anyone do? You'd pick up your AK and have at it. You'd do the same regardless of ethnicity or religion.

"On the other hand, it[the IDF]'s a brutal occupation force, similar to the Germans in World War ll. Similar, not identical. And I'm not talking about their behaviour toward the Jews. That was exceptional, with its own particular characteristics. I mean how they acted to the Poles, the Belgians, the Dutch...To all of them... The Czechs. It's a very negative trait that we acquired,to be... I'm afraid to say it, so I won't. We've become cruel,to ourselves as well,but mainly to the occupied population, using the excuse of the war against terror."

Avraham Shalom, Austrian Jew, brought up in Vienna in the 1930s, Hollocaust survivor, ex Haganah, former Head of Shin Bet. (Italics mine).

Seems that all the former heads of Shin Bet have a better attitude towards the Palestinians than our warrior goy, Grumfutock.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Wednesday 22 October 15:06

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Not really a military dictatorship is it. The coup was at the behest of a massive slice of the people (22 million signed a petition and 14 million took to the streets demanding the government stood down). They also then held presidential elections in 2014 which were widely accepted as fair throughout the world.

Ok - so the leader of the main opposition party has been arrested, the main opposition party (the FJP) has been banned, hundreds of their supporters have been killed or arrested, the current ruler is an ex-general and former head of the Armed Forces who won 96% of the popular vote - and you don't think this is a military dictatorship and that the elections have been "fair"?

NY Times

[Grumfutock]

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that use suicide bombers!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that fire rockets into civilian areas!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that murder their own people without trial!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that use their own people as human shields!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that fire mortars and rockets from schools and hospitals!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas founder and leader who's own son saw the evil nature of the group and choose to work for Shin Bet!

Oh those evil Israeli's!!!!

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that use suicide bombers!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that fire rockets into civilian areas!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that murder their own people without trial!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that use their own people as human shields!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas that fire mortars and rockets from schools and hospitals!

And yet it is the terrorist Hamas founder and leader who's own son saw the evil nature of the group and choose to work for Shin Bet!

Oh those evil Israeli's!!!!

The Resistance in Czechoslovakia did all those things (apart from fire rockets -- they only had mortars -- they did suicide missions, but the suicide bomber was to come later). Oh, those evil Germans!

I'm sure if you gave Hamas rockets with guidance systems, and tanks, and wire guided AT, and fighter jets, they'd be able to avoid civilian areas better than the IDF.

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Ok - so the leader of the main opposition party has been arrested, the main opposition party (the FJP) has been banned, hundreds of their supporters have been killed or arrested, the current ruler is an ex-general and former head of the Armed Forces who won 96% of the popular vote - and you don't think this is a military dictatorship and that the elections have been "fair"?

NY Times

Hmmmmm and yet Ban Ki-moon congratulated el-Sisi, saying that he puts his faith in Egypt's president-elect and trusts that he will do everything possible to support the Egyptian people's aspirations for a "stable, democratic and prosperous Egypt." And the European Union found it fair overall.

But OK what ever you say! Dirty evil Egyptians. How dare they overthrow a tyrannical government that lied, rewrote the constitution, murdered opponents and was more unpopular with the population than Mubarak! How dare they!

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

The Resistance in Czechoslovakia did all those things (apart from fire rockets -- they only had mortars -- they did suicide missions, but the suicide bomber was to come later). Oh, those evil Germans!

I'm sure if you gave Hamas rockets with guidance systems, and tanks, and wire guided AT, and fighter jets, they'd be able to avoid civilian areas better than the IDF.

OK seriously are you comparing Hamas (a group recognized world wide as terrorists) with the Czech resistance fighters of WW2? SERIOUSLY?????


As for give them tanks etc I suggest look at your history! Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Sudan, Saudi Arabia! These are all countries that have attacked Israel since 48, they all had tanks, jets, guns etc and yet they still hid and attack from civilians areas!

Edited by Grumfutock on Wednesday 22 October 15:52

[TheRealFingers99]

For those who want to explore further, and who are prepared to put in a bit of effort, here's Ilan Pappe (one of the Israeli "New Historians") on You Tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIWvcBzbqVc

For myself, I've been surprised by how this thread has radicalised my views against Israel.

[Grumfutock]

Now try, really hard, to answer the question! A simple yes or no will suffice.

[nitrodave]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Israel are the terrorists. A state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing....

The current Israeli government does not want a peace....

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Wednesday 22 October 15:06

You've lost the plot dude.

Watch this, it might create some balance in your mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps&li...

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

OK seriously are you comparing Hamas (a group recognized world wide as terrorists) with the Czech resistance fighters of WW2? SERIOUSLY?????

A former hard man of the Shin Bet (and Shalom was a hard, hard, man) has likened Israel to the Germans. It follows, don't you think? And I think Shalom probably had a more intimate perspective on Israel than either of us.

To be sure, there are differences. But there are more similarities. Both were fighting an army of occupation. Both were massively out-gunned. Both had opponents who practiced ethnic cleansing.

Grumfutock said:

As for give them tanks etc I suggest look at your history! Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Sudan, Saudi Arabia! These are all countries that have attacked Israel since 48, they all had tanks, jets, guns etc and yet they still hid and attack from civilians areas!

I can't follow the logic. Where do I get from the Israeli myth (and it is a myth) of poor little Israel defending itself from overwhelming Arab force to Hamas holed up in one of the most heavily populated areas in the world?

[Lost soul]

TheRealFingers99 said:

I can't follow the logic. Where do I get from the Israeli myth (and it is a myth) of poor little Israel defending itself from overwhelming Arab force

This is a ludicrous statement

You really are something else

[Lost soul]

TheRealFingers99 said:

A former hard man of the Shin Bet (and Shalom was a hard, hard, man) has likened Israel to the Germans.

He was not talking about the holocaust as he stated

[TheRealFingers99]

nitrodave said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Israel are the terrorists. A state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing....

The current Israeli government does not want a peace....

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Wednesday 22 October 15:06

You've lost the plot dude.

Watch this, it might create some balance in your mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps&li...

It's just a rant. Racism is evil. Where have I ever said otherwise? Hamas builds upon the opportunities presented by the Israeli authorities. The PLO was and is corrupt. The PA is a tool of the Israelis. Hamas' tactics are pretty stupid.

But, Israel are the occupying power and are also terrorists. The Israeli state was founded on ethnic cleansing. Israel is itself corrupt.

Resistance has to be understood -- we can argue about the methods -- you don't kick people from their house, shove them into a dog kennel, let them out when it suits you, harass them whenever you please, without incurring their wrath.