Discussion
TheRealFingers99 said:
As I say, it depends on when you want to do the count. Haganah also received a lot of British training pre-war, and some actually fought under Brit command in the war. Syrians were screwed by French orchestrated arms embargo. But 2 to 1 is one hell of an advantage, later on.
For sure, the Israelis did well early on, but it was never in the face of overwhelming odds.
As a rule, they had better training, better command structure.
Hmmm I seem to remember that the Arab Legion had a fair few British officers. The Israeli's also shot down several aircraft. In fact Britain and Israel came within a whisker of war! Really not sure how " Haganah also received a lot of British training pre-war, and some actually fought under Brit command in the war." The Haganah were even carrying out anti British actions pre war.For sure, the Israelis did well early on, but it was never in the face of overwhelming odds.
As a rule, they had better training, better command structure.
Israel had no shortage of volunteers but a real shortage of arms and equipment.
Edited by Grumfutock on Wednesday 22 October 20:16
"The Palmach was established by the Haganah High Command on 14 May 1941. Its aim was to defend the Palestinian Jewish community against two potential threats. Firstly the occupation of Palestine by the Axis in the event of their victory over the British in North Africa. Secondly, if the British army were to retreat from Palestine, Jewish settlements might come under attack from the Arab population. Yitzhak Sadeh was named as Palmach commander. Initially the group consisted of around one hundred men. In the early summer of 1941 the British military authorities agreed to joint operations against Vichy French forces in Lebanon and Syria. The first action was a sabotage mission against oil installations at Tripoli, Lebanon. Twenty-three Palmach members and a British liaison officer set out by sea but were never heard of again. On 8 June mixed squads of Palmach and Australians began operating in Lebanon and Syria. The success of these operations led the British GHQ to fund a sabotage training camp for three hundred men at Mishmar HaEmek. Since the Palmach consisted of unpaid volunteers, the funding was used to cover the needs of twice that number of men. When the British ordered the dismantling of Palmach after the Allied victory at the Second Battle of El Alamein in 1942, the organization went underground." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmach
Pappe The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine pp.33-34 mention Wingate attaching Hagana troops to British Forces during the Arab Revolt and the recollections of one one of them on his British sergeant "'I think you are totally ignorant in your Ramat Yochanon (the training camp for the Hagana) since you do not even know the elementary use of bayonets when attacking dirty Arabs: how can you put your left foot in front!'" (I think this is 1938). I don't understand this, as I've never been trained to use a bayonet -- I guess the right foot goes in front?
More stuff here and on Wingate and the Hagana
"In 1936 Wingate was assigned to the British Mandate of Palestine to a staff officer position and became an intelligence officer. From his arrival he saw the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine as being a religious duty and immediately put himself into absolute alliance with Jewish political leaders. Palestinian Arab guerrillas had at the time of his arrival begun a campaign of attacks against both British mandate officials and Jewish communities.
Wingate became politically involved with a number of Zionist leaders, and became an ardent Zionist, despite not being Jewish.[27] He always returned to Kibbutz En Harod — because he felt familiar with the biblical judge Gideon, who fought in this area, and used it himself as a military base. He formulated the idea of raising small assault units of British-led Jewish commandos, armed with grenades and light infantry small arms, to combat the Arab revolt. Wingate took his idea personally to Archibald Wavell, who was then the commander of British forces in Palestine. After Wavell gave his permission, Wingate convinced the Zionist Jewish Agency and the leadership of Haganah, the Jewish armed group.
In June 1938 the new British commander, General Haining, gave his permission to create the Special Night Squads, armed groups formed of British and Haganah volunteers. The Jewish Agency helped pay salaries and other costs of the Haganah personnel.
Wingate trained, commanded and accompanied them on their patrols. The units frequently ambushed Arab saboteurs who attacked oil pipelines of the Iraq Petroleum Company, raiding border villages the attackers had used as bases. In these raids Wingate's men sometimes imposed severe collective punishments on the village inhabitants that were criticized by Zionist leaders as well as Wingate's British superiors. Wingate disliked Arabs, once shouting at Hagana fighters after a June 1938 attack on a village on the border between Mandatory Palestine and Lebanon, "I think you are all totally ignorant in your Ramat Yochanan [the training base for the Hagana] since you do not even know the elementary use of bayonets when attacking dirty Arabs: how can you put your left foot in front?" But the brutal tactics proved effective in quelling the uprising, and Wingate was awarded the DSO in 1938.
However, his deepening direct political involvement with the Zionist cause and an incident where he spoke publicly in favour of the formation of a Jewish state during his leave in Britain, caused his superiors in Palestine to remove him from command. He was so deeply associated with political causes in Palestine that his superiors considered him compromised as an intelligence officer in the country. He was promoting his own agenda rather than that of the army or the government.
In May 1939, he was transferred back to Britain. Wingate became a hero of the Yishuv (the Jewish Community), and was loved by leaders such as Zvi Brenner and Moshe Dayan who had trained under him, and who claimed that Wingate had "taught us everything we know."
Wingate's political attitudes toward Zionism were heavily influenced by his Plymouth Brethren religious views and belief in certain eschatological doctrines."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Wingate
The Wikipaedia article put the bayonet quote in Wingate's mouth -- Pappe's named source puts it from a sergeant.
I think only the Arab Legion (effectively the Jordanian Army) had significant Brit input as far as training goes amongst the Arabs. The Egyptian Air Force shot themselves in the foot when they attacked a British Air Force base by mistake, loosing, IIRC, 5 Spitfires -- a significant portion of their force.
Pappe The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine pp.33-34 mention Wingate attaching Hagana troops to British Forces during the Arab Revolt and the recollections of one one of them on his British sergeant "'I think you are totally ignorant in your Ramat Yochanon (the training camp for the Hagana) since you do not even know the elementary use of bayonets when attacking dirty Arabs: how can you put your left foot in front!'" (I think this is 1938). I don't understand this, as I've never been trained to use a bayonet -- I guess the right foot goes in front?
More stuff here and on Wingate and the Hagana
"In 1936 Wingate was assigned to the British Mandate of Palestine to a staff officer position and became an intelligence officer. From his arrival he saw the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine as being a religious duty and immediately put himself into absolute alliance with Jewish political leaders. Palestinian Arab guerrillas had at the time of his arrival begun a campaign of attacks against both British mandate officials and Jewish communities.
Wingate became politically involved with a number of Zionist leaders, and became an ardent Zionist, despite not being Jewish.[27] He always returned to Kibbutz En Harod — because he felt familiar with the biblical judge Gideon, who fought in this area, and used it himself as a military base. He formulated the idea of raising small assault units of British-led Jewish commandos, armed with grenades and light infantry small arms, to combat the Arab revolt. Wingate took his idea personally to Archibald Wavell, who was then the commander of British forces in Palestine. After Wavell gave his permission, Wingate convinced the Zionist Jewish Agency and the leadership of Haganah, the Jewish armed group.
In June 1938 the new British commander, General Haining, gave his permission to create the Special Night Squads, armed groups formed of British and Haganah volunteers. The Jewish Agency helped pay salaries and other costs of the Haganah personnel.
Wingate trained, commanded and accompanied them on their patrols. The units frequently ambushed Arab saboteurs who attacked oil pipelines of the Iraq Petroleum Company, raiding border villages the attackers had used as bases. In these raids Wingate's men sometimes imposed severe collective punishments on the village inhabitants that were criticized by Zionist leaders as well as Wingate's British superiors. Wingate disliked Arabs, once shouting at Hagana fighters after a June 1938 attack on a village on the border between Mandatory Palestine and Lebanon, "I think you are all totally ignorant in your Ramat Yochanan [the training base for the Hagana] since you do not even know the elementary use of bayonets when attacking dirty Arabs: how can you put your left foot in front?" But the brutal tactics proved effective in quelling the uprising, and Wingate was awarded the DSO in 1938.
However, his deepening direct political involvement with the Zionist cause and an incident where he spoke publicly in favour of the formation of a Jewish state during his leave in Britain, caused his superiors in Palestine to remove him from command. He was so deeply associated with political causes in Palestine that his superiors considered him compromised as an intelligence officer in the country. He was promoting his own agenda rather than that of the army or the government.
In May 1939, he was transferred back to Britain. Wingate became a hero of the Yishuv (the Jewish Community), and was loved by leaders such as Zvi Brenner and Moshe Dayan who had trained under him, and who claimed that Wingate had "taught us everything we know."
Wingate's political attitudes toward Zionism were heavily influenced by his Plymouth Brethren religious views and belief in certain eschatological doctrines."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Wingate
The Wikipaedia article put the bayonet quote in Wingate's mouth -- Pappe's named source puts it from a sergeant.
I think only the Arab Legion (effectively the Jordanian Army) had significant Brit input as far as training goes amongst the Arabs. The Egyptian Air Force shot themselves in the foot when they attacked a British Air Force base by mistake, loosing, IIRC, 5 Spitfires -- a significant portion of their force.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Wednesday 22 October 22:05
I hope this doesn't kick things off again.
"A three-month old baby was killed and eight other people wounded in Jerusalem – one seriously – in what Israel police are describing as a “terrorist attack” in which a speeding car drove onto a pavement crowded with pedestrians alighting from the city’s light railway.
Video footage posted on social media appears to show a car on the main road slowing slightly before crossing to the train tracks and climbing on to the station pavement and ploughing through the people standing on it.
According to a tweet from an Israeli government spokesman for the Arab media, the driver – a former Palestinian prisoner – “is a member of Hamas"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/22/jerus...
"A three-month old baby was killed and eight other people wounded in Jerusalem – one seriously – in what Israel police are describing as a “terrorist attack” in which a speeding car drove onto a pavement crowded with pedestrians alighting from the city’s light railway.
Video footage posted on social media appears to show a car on the main road slowing slightly before crossing to the train tracks and climbing on to the station pavement and ploughing through the people standing on it.
According to a tweet from an Israeli government spokesman for the Arab media, the driver – a former Palestinian prisoner – “is a member of Hamas"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/22/jerus...
It is perfectly acceptable to murder a 3 month old child. It is fully justified because the terrorist state Israel have used nasty weapons and nicked a bit of land. Why cant people see that Israel are the evil empire here and responsible for everything? I bet they caused global warming as well!
I just thought I would get it in before the Hamas apologists come online and try to twist this into Israels fault!
I just thought I would get it in before the Hamas apologists come online and try to twist this into Israels fault!
Grumfutock said:
It is perfectly acceptable to murder a 3 month old child. It is fully justified because the terrorist state Israel have used nasty weapons and nicked a bit of land. Why cant people see that Israel are the evil empire here and responsible for everything? I bet they caused global warming as well!
I just thought I would get it in before the Hamas apologists come online and try to twist this into Israels fault!
I just thought I would get it in before the Hamas apologists come online and try to twist this into Israels fault!
I don't think you'll find anyone on this thread condoning this terrible murder. You sure like playing the victim card don't you?
bad enough that yet another pointless nutter commits murder, the small detail that said child was an American visitor is really not going to help their case is it?
with all the quoting of ancient history in this thread going on about rights and wrongs of their grandfathers generation, we have a 20 year old who clearly has been brainwashed into doing this kind of s
t (and not for the first time).
this 'war' will never end until the elder nuttes shop teaching their young to become nutters.
goes back t that youtube clip of the UN school in Gaza, teaching them this kind of historical st.
with all the quoting of ancient history in this thread going on about rights and wrongs of their grandfathers generation, we have a 20 year old who clearly has been brainwashed into doing this kind of s
t (and not for the first time).this 'war' will never end until the elder nuttes shop teaching their young to become nutters.
goes back t that youtube clip of the UN school in Gaza, teaching them this kind of historical s
t.zuby84 said:
I don't think you'll find anyone on this thread condoning this terrible murder. You sure like playing the victim card don't you?
Scuffers said:
bad enough that yet another pointless nutter commits murder, the small detail that said child was an American visitor is really not going to help their case is it?
with all the quoting of ancient history in this thread going on about rights and wrongs of their grandfathers generation, we have a 20 year old who clearly has been brainwashed into doing this kind of st (and not for the first time).
this 'war' will never end until the elder nuttes shop teaching their young to become nutters.
How much do you think the "young" are influenced by what is happening around them right now and every day? For example there was a 12 year old arab girl shot a few days ago, people were barred from the Al - Aqsa mosque (again), just stuff that your average Palestinian has to put up with on a day to day basis?with all the quoting of ancient history in this thread going on about rights and wrongs of their grandfathers generation, we have a 20 year old who clearly has been brainwashed into doing this kind of s
t (and not for the first time).this 'war' will never end until the elder nuttes shop teaching their young to become nutters.
Countdown said:
How much do you think the "young" are influenced by what is happening around them right now and every day? For example there was a 12 year old arab girl shot a few days ago, people were barred from the Al - Aqsa mosque (again), just stuff that your average Palestinian has to put up with on a day to day basis?
Yes correct. How much is that Hamas fault though? Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said “Al-Aqsa is worth us becoming martyrs for, and anyone who can carry a weapon in the region should go and defend it, as this is the true meaning of jihad,”
Jerusalem’s Grand Mufti Muhammad Hussein has insisted that the compound is “a holy site for Muslims only.”
Yes those terrible war mongering Israeli's are the root of it all aren't they! Poor blameless, oh so tolerant arabs!
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
How much do you think the "young" are influenced by what is happening around them right now and every day? For example there was a 12 year old arab girl shot a few days ago, people were barred from the Al - Aqsa mosque (again), just stuff that your average Palestinian has to put up with on a day to day basis?
Yes correct. How much is that Hamas fault though? Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said “Al-Aqsa is worth us becoming martyrs for, and anyone who can carry a weapon in the region should go and defend it, as this is the true meaning of jihad,”
Jerusalem’s Grand Mufti Muhammad Hussein has insisted that the compound is “a holy site for Muslims only.”
Yes those terrible war mongering Israeli's are the root of it all aren't they! Poor blameless, oh so tolerant arabs!
You can play the "historical tosh" game until you realise that Israel's sole historical reason for being there is that, once upon a time, there was a Jewish state on the spot. (Hell, there was once a Kurdish Sultanate on the same spot, too, and the Italians could claim it as part of their empire.)
You can play the religious nutters game until you realise that there are Jewish fundamentalists as well as Muslim ones. It's messy, and both fundamentalist factions seem very keen to get in each others face. You have to wonder both what would happen were Muslims to try and approach the "Wailing Wall" and what the Jewish zealots thought would be the result of their actions.
All we're left with is a bunch of dead people.
Time for peace. I suggest free, one person one vote, elections throughout Palestine and Israel. "Palisrael" -- a one state solution. The right of residence for all Jews, the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Jerusalem and Hebron to be city states under UN control.
TheRealFingers99 said:
You can play the tit for tat game till you end up with chicken and egg.
You can play the "historical tosh" game until you realise that Israel's sole historical reason for being there is that, once upon a time, there was a Jewish state on the spot. (Hell, there was once a Kurdish Sultanate on the same spot, too, and the Italians could claim it as part of their empire.)
You can play the religious nutters game until you realise that there are Jewish fundamentalists as well as Muslim ones. It's messy, and both fundamentalist factions seem very keen to get in each others face. You have to wonder both what would happen were Muslims to try and approach the "Wailing Wall" and what the Jewish zealots thought would be the result of their actions.
All we're left with is a bunch of dead people.
Time for peace. I suggest free, one person one vote, elections throughout Palestine and Israel. "Palisrael" -- a one state solution. The right of residence for all Jews, the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Jerusalem and Hebron to be city states under UN control.
You can call for peace until they kill you.You can play the "historical tosh" game until you realise that Israel's sole historical reason for being there is that, once upon a time, there was a Jewish state on the spot. (Hell, there was once a Kurdish Sultanate on the same spot, too, and the Italians could claim it as part of their empire.)
You can play the religious nutters game until you realise that there are Jewish fundamentalists as well as Muslim ones. It's messy, and both fundamentalist factions seem very keen to get in each others face. You have to wonder both what would happen were Muslims to try and approach the "Wailing Wall" and what the Jewish zealots thought would be the result of their actions.
All we're left with is a bunch of dead people.
Time for peace. I suggest free, one person one vote, elections throughout Palestine and Israel. "Palisrael" -- a one state solution. The right of residence for all Jews, the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Jerusalem and Hebron to be city states under UN control.
You can espouse a one state, one vote until the other side slaughter you and push you into the sea.
You can splatter vague historical claims to a piece of land until the realism that right is right dawns on you.
In the end you come to the factual, methodical and inevitable conclusion that as long as the Arabs allow leaders that spout genocide, religious hatred and intolerance to rule over them then you will never have peace.
The Palestinians have, throughout history, failed to live together in tolerance and peace, and continue to do so today. What chance is there of them living in peace and harmony with Jews? ZERO!
This will only end when one side gives up the land or is destroyed. I know who my money is on.
Grumfutock said:
You can call for peace until they kill you.
Mere rhetoric. Who has killed more?Grumfutock said:
You can espouse a one state, one vote until the other side slaughter you and push you into the sea.
Who is pushing who? Again, the slaughter has been pretty one sided.Grumfutock said:
You can splatter vague historical claims to a piece of land until the realism that right is right dawns on you.
Right is right? Explain, please. Or did you mean to write "Might is Right"? (The realpolitic of Netanyahu, Likud, the Zionists?)Grumfutock said:
In the end you come to the factual, methodical and inevitable conclusion that as long as the Arabs allow leaders that spout genocide, religious hatred and intolerance to rule over them then you will never have peace.
You could argue (but I've got my one state solution hat on today) that as long as you oppress, use genocide, take the pee out of the UN, you'll never have peace. Peace is possible -- but it will be damn difficult. Grumfutock said:
The Palestinians have, throughout history, failed to live together in tolerance and peace, and continue to do so today. What chance is there of them living in peace and harmony with Jews? ZERO!
All the people of the ME have pretty much been in conflict with each other since Sky Fairy alone knows when. Yep, Israelites as well. Relative peace only under invasion (Kurds, Romans, Egyptians, Brits, etc.). The trick, the mission, is to change that.Grumfutock said:
This will only end when one side gives up the land or is destroyed. I know who my money is on.
Well, the map is changing as we speak. Vediamo!
Meanwhile:
'EU is “extremely concerned” about plans to relocate “up to 12,000 Beduin without their consent in a new town in the Jordan valley, expelling them from lands in the West Bank, including the E1 area.”'
More ethnic cleansing.
In Israeli official: EU proposal to negotiate West Bank redlines is a death warrant.
Éire just recognised the Palestinian state, sneaked under the radar, that one.
The irresponsible rush to blame Abbas is worth a read.
Incidentally, Times of Israel has the mother of the guy who drove the car saying "her son was mentally unstable, it was an accident".
'EU is “extremely concerned” about plans to relocate “up to 12,000 Beduin without their consent in a new town in the Jordan valley, expelling them from lands in the West Bank, including the E1 area.”'
More ethnic cleansing.
In Israeli official: EU proposal to negotiate West Bank redlines is a death warrant.
Éire just recognised the Palestinian state, sneaked under the radar, that one.
The irresponsible rush to blame Abbas is worth a read.
Incidentally, Times of Israel has the mother of the guy who drove the car saying "her son was mentally unstable, it was an accident".
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 23 October 14:57
Well considering that the Palestinians have around 16,000,000 and the Jews are around 6,000,000 I would say the death rate is slightly in the favor of Israel. If you also bring in all the other Arab states that like to be involved then the Israeli's are loosing hand over fist percentage wise!
Grumfutock said:
Well considering that the Palestinians have around 16,000,000 and the Jews are around 6,000,000 I would say the death rate is slightly in the favor of Israel. If you also bring in all the other Arab states that like to be involved then the Israeli's are loosing hand over fist percentage wise!
You mean, the Israelis are killing more? But your demographics seem hopeless, even if you include 5 million or so Palestinian refugees and call Israeli Arabs "Palestinians". See here for Palestine, here for Israel.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Racism as well! Another great supporter of Israel. I'm actually a Brummie, support Chelsea, and am proud of my Roma and Jewish heritage.
Who are you but an illiterate (and foul mouthed) troll?
FYI you are allowed to be proud of your Roma heritage but must show shame and contrition at your Jewish heritage, just as Englishmen must with theirs. Who are you but an illiterate (and foul mouthed) troll?
Such are the rules of PC. Carry on.
supersingle said:
FYI you are allowed to be proud of your Roma heritage but must show shame and contrition at your Jewish heritage, just as Englishmen must with theirs.
Such are the rules of PC. Carry on.
Nah. No shame. I am what I am and all that. PC isn't about shame, blame, or any of that horlicks.Such are the rules of PC. Carry on.
I do remember being in Bologna one day and asking someone for directions to the train station. The guy (maybe 60, 65) was a bit off until a light came on behind his eyes. "Ah, you're English!", he said and shook my hand "I thought you were German!"
TheRealFingers99 said:
I do remember being in Bologna one day and asking someone for directions to the train station. The guy (maybe 60, 65) was a bit off until a light came on behind his eyes. "Ah, you're English!", he said and shook my hand "I thought you were German!"
And rightly so! You are lucky he didn't think you were French or he might of spat in your eye!Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff