Israeli

[Grumfutock]

Oh dear, now the evil terrorist nation that is Egypt are picking on the peace loving Palestinians.

It just isn't fair. They have never don any wrong to anyone and yet whole nations and governments are against them.

Maybe the Egyptian government is on the Igrun pay roll?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-298117...

[Slaav]

Once more may I ask:

Do Hamas want peace under any possible circumstances? I don't think so. That would simply ruin their reason for being!
Would there be a possible 'peace' acceptable ever to terrorists from Hamas? Yes, when Israel ceases to be!

Can the same be said for all Palestinians? I don't think so. Most do seem to want a solution whilst not insisting on wiping out Israel.

Flip the coin, does Israel want peace? Absolutely, when one state exists and that state us Israel! They get to choose what, where and for whom..... No questions asked. Those are not reasonable terms? Do we not all agree?

Simple question for any Israelis or their supporters:

'Does Israel want peace on reasonably fair terms? Or only on their own terms?'


Ps - there is a growing part of me that thinks both sides deserve each other unfortunately...... But there has to be a solution!

[Grumfutock]

Slaav said:

Once more may I ask:

Do Hamas want peace under any possible circumstances? I don't think so. That would simply ruin their reason for being!
Would there be a possible 'peace' acceptable ever to terrorists from Hamas? Yes, when Israel ceases to be!

Can the same be said for all Palestinians? I don't think so. Most do seem to want a solution whilst not insisting on wiping out Israel.

Flip the coin, does Israel want peace? Absolutely, when one state exists and that state us Israel! They get to choose what, where and for whom..... No questions asked. Those are not reasonable terms? Do we not all agree?

Simple question for any Israelis or their supporters:

'Does Israel want peace on reasonably fair terms? Or only on their own terms?'


Ps - there is a growing part of me that thinks both sides deserve each other unfortunately...... But there has to be a solution!

1. Hamas want peace? No! Peace would mean they lose power and reason for being. They need and create war as a means to keep the peoples hatred of Israel high, this keeps them in power. Basic and old fashioned nationalistic political strategy. Bang the drum and people will follow the flag.

2. Israel want peace on their terms. 100% agree.

3. Do they deserve each other? Absolutely!

4. There has to be a solution? Why? If they do find one then somebody else will just start slaughtering each other. It is what humans do. We only care about this one because it has gone on for so long.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Oh dear, you seem to be getting confused between biblical tales, Hollywood and real history. I am talking about the Kingdom of Judah, kingdom of Israel and the Assyrians.

The fact that the history is disputed is only as to the size of the kingdom. The is no doubt that Israelite lived as a vassal of the Assyrians.

Ah, I thought we were not talking history! This was, what, 740 BC! Since you were unclear as to which exile you were talking about (and I did express my doubts) I could only guess. Since you postulate this exile (and it seems it may have been a partial exile) as a motive for Israel's ethnic cleansing (etc.) of Palestine, you seem to be a believer in some kind of Jungian collective memory. If that collective memory is the Old Testament, then Egypt is equally viable.

Grumfutock said:

Muslim Brotherhood not a terrorist group? REALLY???? Oh ok I see what your trying to do.

I'm not trying to do anything. The status of various groups changes from time to time. Currently the PKK are supported by the US, Germany and the anti ISIS coalition. All have declared them as terrorists from time to time.

Grumfutock said:

I don't think Egypt shares our view, nor Russia, nor Qatar, nor Saudi, nor UAE, nor Syria, nor Israel.

I'm not really concerned with the views of a military dictatorship, states ruled by despots, states ruled by the supporters of ISIS, etc, and while I'm interested in understanding Hamas, I'm not going to blindly justify them. Once more, Hamas = murdering bds, silly tactics, etc. But Hamas do not = Palestinians, any more than Likud = Israelis.

Grumfutock said:

Muslim Brotherhood not being terrorists is as likely as Hamas winning the Nobel Peace Prize.

I'd not rule it out after Obama won it!

Grumfutock said:

And as for the Likud comment, once again I will say to you why should they??? Why should Israel offer viable Palestinian state when those same Palestinians have the sole objective of destroying Israel? Why would anyone give peace or power to their enemy that has hatred, violence and bigotry engraved into their hearts?

I'm not sure which side has more hatred, violence and bigotry engraved into their hearts, and by who. I remind you again, who started it? A people who have been ethnically cleansed and exiled (within living memory!) might be expected to be a little upset.

Grumfutock said:

No nation on earth would do as you say and any ideas of this sort belong in some 1960's hippy camp not in the real world of international politics.

South Africa.

[Grumfutock]

Oh come now, I don't recall Mr Mandela's lot firing rockets out of Sharpville? I don't recall the students of Soweto driving cars into white people at tram stops? I don't recall Steve Biko being killed in a suicide bombing?
No South Africa didn't and doesn't compare to the subject under debate.


The Muslim Brotherhood's activities in the UK are the only thing that has been cleared of Terrorism. Not the Muslim Brotherhood! And amazingly when we announced we were looking into their UK HQ they moved it abroad.

You also ask who started it? In my opinion the Arabs. you wont see it that way so it is a pointless conversation.

Edited by Grumfutock on Wednesday 29th October 15:46

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Oh come now, I don't recall Mr Mandela's lot firing rockets out of Sharpville.

They did commit acts which some classed as terrorism.

I don't recall the SA government using germ warfare, although they did do pretty much everything else.

[Slaav]

Grumfutock said:

Oh come now, I don't recall Mr Mandela's lot firing rockets out of Sharpville.

I posted something along the lines of 'South Africa' near the beginning of this thread.

In brief summary, I was lucky enough to hear FWdK speak personally and recount the stories of trying to find peace. The barriers to the peace process were certainly there!

Without doing both him and NM an injustice here, both of them were effectively on assasination watch from THEIR OWN SIDES in case any word of their talks leaked out. There were so many people hell bent on keeping the conflict going that it needed two TRUE statesmen to break the deadlock. They did so at great personal danger to themselves and their families.

NM was a terrorist once apparently!

So, in summary, do two men such as these exist in the context of the ME conflict and the debate going on here? The answer is clear to me.

Going back to 'The Gatekeepers' film, there was a similar situation a few years ago whereby there was a 'secret' Israeli push (again at great personal danger) for peace. The head of the Shin Bet at that time held himself personally responsible for the assasination of Rabin? I seem to remember that the Shin Bet chap was also quite angry that a true chance of peace was shattered by their own side!

Let's not get bogged down in whether SA is now a better or worse place etc. but appreciate that there CAN be peace despite life long hatred and indoctrination.

The question is:

Do the Israelis actually want peace? Truly? (With reasonable conditions as opposed to one Israeli state solution whereby the Terrorist dogs are driven into the sea ....)

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Grumfutock said:

Oh come now, I don't recall Mr Mandela's lot firing rockets out of Sharpville.

They did commit acts which some classed as terrorism.

I don't recall the SA government using germ warfare, although they did do pretty much everything else.

Germ warfare? I don't recall Israel doing that either.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Germ warfare? I don't recall Israel doing that either.

During the siege of Acre -- operation “Shlach Lachmecha” -- at least. There is conclusive evidence of the use of typhoid in the water supply. Also possibly Malaria (mentioned by Ben Gurion) and Cholera.

"Assi, the son of Israeli General Moshe Dayan, wrote in his memoir published in Yediot that during the war his father brought home tubes containing typhus. He explained that the intent was to drop these tubes into the water supply of the Jordanian Legion. Before the plan was implemented one of the tubes broke and Assi got infected."

For more, see:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels-history-of-ch...

For even more scary stuff:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p24_Weber.html

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

You also ask who started it? In my opinion the Arabs. you wont see it that way so it is a pointless conversation.

And you won't read the books! So your view of Israel is based on Hollywood and a few nights of jiggy jiggy in Tel Aviv! (I'm lucky in that all the Jews I slept with -- including a former kibbutznik -- were anti-Zionist).

If you can justify your view that the Arabs started it, let's hear your argument against the view that the Nakba started before the end of the British Mandate, for the non-existence of Plan Dalet, etc.

Put up or shut up.

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

And you won't read the books! So your view of Israel is based on Hollywood and a few nights of jiggy jiggy in Tel Aviv! (I'm lucky in that all the Jews I slept with -- including a former kibbutznik -- were anti-Zionist).

If you can justify your view that the Arabs started it, let's hear your argument against the view that the Nakba started before the end of the British Mandate, for the non-existence of Plan Dalet, etc.

Put up or shut up.

My views on who started it are strewn through out this thread for the world to see. I am fed up with writing the same historical FACTS over and over just so that people can ignore them and cherry pick items to suit their own ends.

Real simple synopsis:

1947 British announce they will cease the mandate
1947 UN pass resolution for Independent Arab state, Independent Jewish state and the city of Jerusalem.
1947 Israel accepts proposal Arab League reject it.
1948 Israel declares independence.
1948 Entire Arab world attacks Israel. War aim to eradicate Israel. Arabs lose!
48-73 Arabs mass and fight Israel 4 time. War aim to eradicate Israel. Arabs lose!
73-now Arabs bh and moan that all the above isn't fair and that it is a world conspiracy that they are crap at fighting and shouldn't of lost!
73-now Arabs resort to terrorism.

Arabs had a chance to have their own country, decided to be greedy and go for the lot, got their arses handed to them, repeatedly, on a plate. Tough luck, suck it up, deal with the consequences!

The end!

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

My views on who started it are strewn through out this thread for the world to see. I am fed up with writing the same historical FACTS over and over just so that people can ignore them and cherry pick items to suit their own ends.

Real simple synopsis:

1947 British announce they will cease the mandate
1947 UN pass resolution for Independent Arab state, Independent Jewish state and the city of Jerusalem.
1947 Israel accepts proposal Arab League reject it.
1948 Israel declares independence.
1948 Entire Arab world attacks Israel. War aim to eradicate Israel. Arabs lose!
48-73 Arabs mass and fight Israel 4 time. War aim to eradicate Israel. Arabs lose!
73-now Arabs bh and moan that all the above isn't fair and that it is a world conspiracy that they are crap at fighting and shouldn't of lost!
73-now Arabs resort to terrorism.

Arabs had a chance to have their own country, decided to be greedy and go for the lot, got their arses handed to them, repeatedly, on a plate. Tough luck, suck it up, deal with the consequences!

The end!

Facts, my bottom. It's just a sad regurgitation of the (mainly) pre-2000 Israeli state myth.

1936-39: Britain crushes the Arab revolt. "Over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population between 20 and 60 was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled." "It caused the British Mandate to give crucial support to pre-state Zionist militias like the Haganah whereas on the Palestinian Arab side, the revolt forced the fleeing into exile of the main Palestinian Arab leader of the period, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini." Basically, Britain removes the Palestinian leadership.

1939-1947: With brief hiatuses (fighting each other, WW2) the Jewish insurgency in Palestine. Essentially this was "provoked" by the publication of the MacDonald White Paper of 1939, which proposed restrictions on Jewish immigration and independence for Palestine with an Arab majority within ten years.

1947: UN resolution. Rejected by Arab Palestinians (in fact the Palestinian leadership boycotted) and Arabs generally. Note just how crassly unjust (and possibly unlawful) this was. 56% of the land to the Israelis, on the basis of them actually owning 5.8%! (The Jews had earlier, let us note, violently rejected the one state solution proposed by Britain.)

December 1947 – March 1948: According to [Israeli] historian Benny Morris, the period was marked by Palestinian Arab attacks and Jewish defensiveness, increasingly punctuated by Jewish reprisals. The Zionist groups of Irgun and Lehi reverted to their 1937–1939 strategy of indiscriminate attacks by placing bombs and throwing grenades into crowded places such as bus stops, shopping centres and markets. Their attacks on British forces reduced British troops' ability and willingness to protect Jewish traffic. At Qisarya, south of Haifa Palestinian Arabs were evicted and their houses destroyed on 19–20 February 1948. Several communities were expelled by the Haganah and several others were chased away by the Irgun.
According to [Israeli historian] Ilan Pappé, the Zionists organised a campaign of threats, consisting of the distribution of threatening leaflets, 'violent reconnaissance' and, after the arrival of mortars, the shelling of Arab villages and neighborhoods.Pappé also notes that the Haganah shifted its policy from retaliation to offensive initiatives.
Count Bernadotte, the UN mediator in Palestine, reported that "the exodus of the Palestinian Arabs resulted from panic created by fighting in their communities, by rumours concerning real or alleged acts of terrorism, or expulsion. Almost the whole of the Arab population fled or was expelled from the area under Jewish occupation". [Italics, emphases, square brackets mine, rest is pretty much verbatim Wikipaedia.]

April 9, 1948. Deir Yassin massacre. Jewish insurgents attack a Palestinian village near Jerusalem killing approximately 104 including women and children with rifles, machine guns and hand grenades. There are reports of “clean up” squads butchering the survivors. Several villagers were taken prisoner and may have been killed after being paraded through the streets of West Jerusalem, though accounts vary. The victors inflate the number of dead in reports leading to widespread panic and exodus.

“By most accounts, they [the villagers of Deir Yassin] lived in peace with their Jewish neighbors in nearby villages, particularly those in Givat Shaul, an Orthodox community just across the valley, some of whom reportedly tried to help the Deir Yassin villagers during the Irgun-Lehi invasion.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

April 1948 – June 1948: “By 1 May 1948, two weeks before the Israeli Declaration of Independence, nearly 175,000 Palestinians (approximately 25%) had already fled.
The fighting in these months was concentrated in the Jerusalem–Tel Aviv area, On April 9, the Deir Yassin massacre and the rumours that followed it spread fear among the Palestinians. Next, the Haganah defeated local militia in Tiberias. On April 21–22 in Haifa, after the Haganah waged a day-and-a-half battle including psychological warfare, the Jewish National Committee was unable to offer the Palestinian council assurance that an unconditional surrender would proceed without incident. Finally, Irgun under Menachim Begin fired mortars on the infrastructure in Jaffa. Combined with the fear inspired by Deir Yassin, each of these military actions resulted in panicked Palestinian evacuations.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exod...


May 14, 1948 was a Friday. The British Mandate ended at midnight, so the next day was the Sabbath. “The Sabbath is commanded by God. Every week religious Jews observe the Sabbath, the Jewish holy day, and keep its laws and customs. The Sabbath begins at nightfall on Friday and lasts until nightfall on Saturday.”

But the Israelis had begun early.

Note that even by May 14th, Israel had taken more land than the UN allotted it.

Ghada Karmi writes that the Israeli version of history is that the "Palestinians left voluntarily or under orders from their leaders and that Israelis had no responsibility, material or moral, for their plight." She also finds a form of denial among Israelis that Palestinians bear the blame for the Nakba by not accepting the UN's proposed partition of Palestine into separate ethnic states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exod...

Is that good summary of your position?

"On the other hand, it's a brutal occupation force [the IDF], similar to the Germans in World War ll. Similar, not identical. And I'm not talking about their
behaviour toward the Jews. That was exceptional, with its own particular characteristics.

I mean how they acted to the Poles, the Belgians, the Dutch... To all of them... The Czechs. It's a very negative trait that we acquired,to be... I'm afraid
to say it, so I won't. We've become cruel, to ourselves as well, but mainly to the occupied population, using the excuse of the war against terror." Avraham Shalom, transcript of the film The Gatekeepers Emphasis mine.

Difficult to believe, but Shalom at the end was much closer to the truth than you. Morally, ethically, probably factually.

Israel, without US support, is a doomed enterprise.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 00:48

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 02:42

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 03:01

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Is that good summary of your position?

No.

Israel get 56% of the land but only owned 5.8%? Dont think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_Statistics,_1...

So it is perfectly OK for the Arabs to revolt but if the Jews dare to do the same it is some sort of evil ethnic cleansing?

And yes, on May 14 the Jews started to take more land. They weren't blind or stupid. They could see EXACTLY what the Arabs were going to do.

You seem to think that all of the current problems stem from 47-47 and that 47-48 was all the fault of Israel. A very perverse and twisted view of history. In your entry above you make numerous mention of Israeli attacks on villages and Arabs, you use phrases such as "indiscriminate attacks" and "violent reconnaissance", and yet you make not one mention of the Arabs doing the same. This wasn't a one sided affair!

But as usual you excuse all the Arab actions, deeds and words as if they didnt happen or were perfectly justified because of the Jewish actions.

You have previously stated that you are of Roma/Jewish heritage, I wonder if you excuse the actions of Germany towards your Roma family as easily as you seem to condemn the actions of your Jewish roots.

I will end this here. I will not change your twisted and distorted view of historical fact and you certainly wont change my opinion on factual history.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

No.

Israel get 56% of the land but only owned 5.8%? Dont think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_Statistics,_1...

See (from the link you posted)



Jews own 5.67% of the land, made up of 12.78% of the cultivatable land and



1.84% of the non-cultivatable land.

Another fact you'll choose to ignore!

Grumfutock said:

So it is perfectly OK for the Arabs to revolt but if the Jews dare to do the same it is some sort of evil ethnic cleansing?

You miss the point -- rather deliberately.

Plan Dalet was a planned, orchestrated, attempt at ethnic cleansing. It fits all the current criteria as Pappe demonstrates. It is Bosnia in the Middle East.
We even know which building in Tel Aviv it took place in. It could be presented as "the bride is already married....... bugger it, let's arrange the divorce!".

Grumfutock said:

And yes, on May 14 the Jews started to take more land. They weren't blind or stupid. They could see EXACTLY what the Arabs were going to do.

The Israelis began to take land -- and expel Palestinians -- long before the end of the mandate. They took appreciably more land, before the end of the mandate -- than allocated to them by the UN. But, then, the Israelis only like the UN when it favours them!

Grumfutock said:

You seem to think that all of the current problems stem from 47-47 and that 47-48 was all the fault of Israel. A very perverse and twisted view of history. In your entry above you make numerous mention of Israeli attacks on villages and Arabs, you use phrases such as "indiscriminate attacks" and "violent reconnaissance", and yet you make not one mention of the Arabs doing the same. This wasn't a one sided affair!

I also mention that the Zionist attacks changes from mere retaliation to -- shall we say -- "land clearance" in early 1947.

Grumfutock said:

But as usual you excuse all the Arab actions, deeds and words as if they didnt happen or were perfectly justified because of the Jewish actions.

[sarcasm] Unlike you, I'm not presenting a complete, impartial, two sided view of things! [/sarcasm]

Grumfutock said:

You have previously stated that you are of Roma/Jewish heritage, I wonder if you excuse the actions of Germany towards your Roma family as easily as you seem to condemn the actions of your Jewish roots.

This is twisted. It seems a perverse attempt to justify ethnic cleansing on the basis of ethnic cleansing. Many Jews condemn Zionism. It is both asinine and racist to equate Zionism with Judaism (the Jews, after all, were promised the land after the Day of Judgement, after the coming of the Messiah) or Jews with Zionists.

Grumfutock said:

I will end this here. I will not change your twisted and distorted view of historical fact and you certainly wont change my opinion on factual history.

Factual history, my bottom. You don't deal with facts, just perpetuate a myth. When I present facts to you, you ignore them in your argument. You generally don't counter them.

Example:

1. Israeli use of germ warfare.
2. Poor little Israel, outnumbered and outgunned.
3. Gross misrepresentation of the demographics
4. "On May 14th"....... when even Bernadotte (who was murdered by Zionists, before the end of the mandate) wrote: "Almost the whole of the Arab population fled or was expelled from the area under Jewish occupation".

In passing, I'd point out that I'd not heard of Pappe, Morris, any of the new historians, before I came to this thread.

I'd like to thank you for radicalising me.

But if I can put in the effort, so can you. You have only to cast off your blinkers.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 13:00

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 14:57

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 15:03

[Grumfutock]

Amazing, even by your standards of denial!

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Amazing, even by your standards of denial!

What exactly am I denying?

FCS man, you present nothing and make that accusation? You'll accuse me of being a kiddie fiddler next!

Present some "facts" you've not made up!

Present some references that do not contradict what you're saying!

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 16:31

[nitrodave]

this thread is completely representative of why the conflict with the arab world and Israel will never be resolved.

Stubborn, tit for tat, you said this, so i'll do that, never ending blaming and hatred, dwelling on the past, can't look to the future, my forefathers suffered so you will suffer 10 times more... suborn, ignorant, naive and stuck in the past attitudes.

there will never be peace with this mentality, the arab world is stuck in the past - that is clear to see in how their countries are run. I actually feel sorry for israel being stuck there dealing neighbours like that.

[TheRealFingers99]

nitrodave said:

I actually feel sorry for israel being stuck there dealing neighbours like that.

Not so much neighbours, I'd think, but unwanted squatters.

Israel (or rather, the Zionists) made the choice, made the conditions, they knew the situation.

I have -- on this very thread -- made suggestions as to a possible peace, as have others. It remains for the Israelis (the occupying power) to put something sensible on the table. I see no evidence of that, but I live in hope. "Nations do behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives,” (Israeli diplomat Abba Eban)

Try some films. There's a thread here.

I like The Gatekeepers, 5 Broken Cameras and Tears of Gaza. None are very old. The Alpha Diaries presents an Israeli viewpoint, A Beginner's Guide to the Israeli Palestinian Conflict is a good overview for starter.

Most are available as torrents, some on You Tube.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 17:55

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

What exactly am I denying?

FCS man, you present nothing and make that accusation? You'll accuse me of being a kiddie fiddler next!

Present some "facts" you've not made up!

Present some references that do not contradict what you're saying!

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Thursday 30th October 16:31

How many times do I have to say it! I have "presented" the facts many, many times but you choose to misrepresent them, ignore them or some how pass them off as "made up"!

I cannot help you if you refuse to accept historical facts. You choose to highlight the Jewish attacks in 47 and yet ignore the Arab revolt in 36. You talk of Zionist land grabs in 48 but ignore the Arab leagues attack. You drone on and on about Jewish massacres of Arabs in 48 but make no reference to the Arab ones. You talk of genocide against the Arabs but seem to completely forget the relevance of the holocaust on the events of 45-48. You prattle on about the UN resolutions broken by Israel but ignore the fact that it was the UN that created the country! You talk of Jewish land amounting to 5.67% but ignore the fact that those figures include the 40% that nobody owned.

As already said, I am done. I have no desire to waste my energy debating with somebody that refuses to accept FACTS!

[2013BRM]

nitrodave said:

this thread is completely representative of why the conflict with the arab world and Israel will never be resolved.

Stubborn, tit for tat, you said this, so i'll do that, never ending blaming and hatred, dwelling on the past, can't look to the future, my forefathers suffered so you will suffer 10 times more... suborn, ignorant, naive and stuck in the past attitudes.

there will never be peace with this mentality, the arab world is stuck in the past - that is clear to see in how their countries are run. I actually feel sorry for israel being stuck there dealing neighbours like that.

Agreed, a microcosm of reality, if anything a perfect example of why this region will never see peace, and this pair never agreeing