Israeli

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

How many times do I have to say it! I have "presented" the facts many, many times but you choose to misrepresent them, ignore them or some how pass them off as "made up"!

I cannot help you if you refuse to accept historical facts.

Grumfutock said:

You choose to highlight the Jewish attacks in 47 and yet ignore the Arab revolt in 36.

You mean the one I refer to:

TheRealFingers99 said:

1936-39: Britain crushes the Arab revolt. "Over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population between 20 and 60 was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled." "It caused the British Mandate to give crucial support to pre-state Zionist militias like the Haganah whereas on the Palestinian Arab side, the revolt forced the fleeing into exile of the main Palestinian Arab leader of the period, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini." Basically, Britain removes the Palestinian leadership.

Grumfutock said:

You talk of Zionist land grabs in 48 but ignore the Arab leagues attack.

The Arab League did not participate in the conflict, as far as I know, before the end of the British Mandate. Their intervention can be (albeit charitably) seen as an Arab response to the Nakba.

Grumfutock said:

You drone on and on about Jewish massacres of Arabs in 48 but make no reference to the Arab ones.

There were Arab massacres. There were major massacres by Palestinian Jews prior to 1948. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_massacre... You might note, in passing: "During the Arab-Israeli War, the fighting armies were more or less disciplined and "the killings of civilians and prisoners of war almost stopped, except for the series of atrocities committed by the IDF forces"". [op.cit] In any event, the Arab attacks were hardly part of a calculated attempt at ethnic cleansing.

Grumfutock said:

You talk of genocide against the Arabs but seem to completely forget the relevance of the holocaust on the events of 45-48.

I can't see any real relevance: the Holocaust was over. So was the Parajmos. I see no attempt by Jews or Roma to invade Germany! The Arabs did not commit the Shoah: this is genocide as a justification for genocide. Utterly contemptible. Obscenity on top of obscenity.

Grumfutock said:

You prattle on about the UN resolutions broken by Israel but ignore the fact that it was the UN that created the country!

And you've repeatedly done the exactly the opposite. I'd remind you (again), that Israel has broken more UN resolutions than any other country.

Grumfutock said:

You talk of Jewish land amounting to 5.67% but ignore the fact that those figures include the 40% that nobody owned.

So, by what perverted maths does 5.67% entitle the Israelis to 56% of the land when the Palestinians owned 48%? Your source!

I keep presenting you with facts. I use your own sources against you. You come back with insults and myths.

[Grumfutock]

For myths read facts.

Insults? No idea where they are? If you are referring to the words prattle and drone then no wonder you find Israel so offensive to your overly sensitive, fragile feelings.

[Slaav]

A quick question for our two 'loudest' friends.....

Do you both actually want peace?

A second question, do you want peace on your own terms or fk you?

A third question, would you be prepared to accept a negotiated settlement and peace even if it didn't give you everything that you want or would prefer?

Yet more simple questions. And on this point, I truly don't give a flying fk for your versions of history.

Sorry. I do feel strongly but feel that Nitro? Has a point.




Ps - apologies to grum and 3F but this needs to eg taken right back! And FFS please answer my dumb questions. No caveats! No qualification.

[TheRealFingers99]

Slaav said:

A quick question for our two 'loudest' friends.....

Do you both actually want peace?

I can't speak for Mr.Lazy, but, yes.

I've suggested two models: the first, the UN 1967 proposal with Jerusalem and maybe Hebron as city states under UN control. The second, a one state solution, "Palisrael" votes for all, a homeland for all Jews, a right of return for all Palestinian refugees.

Slaav said:

A second question, do you want peace on your own terms or fk you?

A third question, would you be prepared to accept a negotiated settlement and peace even if it didn't give you everything that you want or would prefer?

I'm not in a position to decide! But, sure, peace will involve the giving of ground on both sides. This, strangely (or not) is why I tend to favour the one state solution: everyone in the same boat, no-where to run and hide. The Palestinians will have something to lose other than their lives.

Does that help?

[Slaav]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Slaav said:

A quick question for our two 'loudest' friends.....

Do you both actually want peace?

I can't speak for Mr.Lazy, but, yes.

I've suggested two models: the first, the UN 1967 proposal with Jerusalem and maybe Hebron as city states under UN control. The second, a one state solution, "Palisrael" votes for all, a homeland for all Jews, a right of return for all Palestinian refugees.

Slaav said:

A second question, do you want peace on your own terms or fk you?

A third question, would you be prepared to accept a negotiated settlement and peace even if it didn't give you everything that you want or would prefer?

I'm not in a position to decide! But, sure, peace will involve the giving of ground on both sides. This, strangely (or not) is why I tend to favour the one state solution: everyone in the same boat, no-where to run and hide. The Palestinians will have something to lose other than their lives.

Does that help?

Yes!

I am personally changing some of my own views re the 'perfect' solution but unfortunately, one side simply won't agree with my own 'perfect' solution.

I also fear other stuff.....

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

I can't speak for Mr.Lazy, but, yes.

Tut, tut. Such childish insults

[Grumfutock]

Terms for peace?

I have no idea what would work or would not but I do know that it will not stop in its current form.

The simple fact is that Israel now exists. The question of right or wrong in 48 is now a completely mute point as Israel is not going to go away, disappear or be destroyed. They are to strong and the world would not allow it. The sooner the arabs learn to accept this and stop the terrorism then the sooner they might just all learn to live together.

Continued attacks by bombers and rockets is not the answer. No nation on earth would just sit there and take it but for some bizarre reason Israel is expected to by some on here because of some ridiculous and tenuous UN decision 70 years ago.

Stop the terrorism = stand a chance of peace.

Don't = continued land grabs and eventual defeat.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Stop the terrorism = stand a chance of peace.

No, there isn't, unless your definition of peace is de facto Israeli control over the whole of the West Bank with Palestinians living in cantonments.

Netanyahu has already said he will not allow a two-State solution to happen. So please stop spouting the same old rubbish. I don't think you're that gullible.

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Grumfutock said:

Stop the terrorism = stand a chance of peace.

No, there isn't, unless your definition of peace is de facto Israeli control over the whole of the West Bank with Palestinians living in cantonments.

Netanyahu has already said he will not allow a two-State solution to happen. So please stop spouting the same old rubbish. I don't think you're that gullible.

Sorry but where did I mention a two state solution. I am also not gullible enough to allow you to put words in to my mouth! I said "Stop the terrorism = stand a chance of peace."

Real simple! Keep up the terrorist attacks and Israel is going to keep beating the crap out of them. Stop and maybe, just maybe, all parties can build enough trust tp work out a solution.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Sorry but where did I mention a two state solution. I am also not gullible enough to allow you to put words in to my mouth! I said "Stop the terrorism = stand a chance of peace."

Real simple! Keep up the terrorist attacks and Israel is going to keep beating the crap out of them. Stop and maybe, just maybe, all parties can build enough trust tp work out a solution.

Let me give you just one recent example of why Israel doesn't do "Stop the terrorism + stand a chance for peace".

During the recent Israel / Gaza conflict the West Bank remained quiet. there was no terrorism. Israel's response was to seize 1000+ acres of farmland. There has not been a single step by Israel towards peace. Even the US are fed up with them, labelling Netanyahu a chickenst.

Btw if a 2-state solution isn't in your definition of peace - what is? A one state solution with the Palestinians having full voting rights?

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Let me give you just one recent example of why Israel doesn't do "Stop the terrorism + stand a chance for peace".

During the recent Israel / Gaza conflict the West Bank remained quiet. there was no terrorism. Israel's response was to seize 1000+ acres of farmland. There has not been a single step by Israel towards peace. Even the US are fed up with them, labelling Netanyahu a chickenst.

Btw if a 2-state solution isn't in your definition of peace - what is? A one state solution with the Palestinians having full voting rights?

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Old news, old rhetoric, old victim card.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Old news, old rhetoric, old victim card.

You keep saying "Stop the Terrorism - get peace" as if you think the Israelis genuinely want that (lets disregard Netanyahu's comments for a second).

Abbass has a fairly tight control over the WB. So can you give me one example of where this has resulted in any meaningful concessions by the Israeli Govt? On the other hand you might want to look at how much more land has been annexed and Settlements built....)

[Grumfutock]

And once again, did I say that?

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

And once again, did I say that?

You're right "Get peace" and "stand a chance of peace" are completely different.

[Grumfutock]

No. Again that isn't what I said is it! But hey, if the debate and facts don't suit your agenda please feel free to change, twist misrepresent and alter them as you see fit.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Old news, old rhetoric, old victim card.

Oh yes. This from the man who was trying to blame the Nakba on the Holocaust a few posts ago.

But tell us, what would your one state solution be like?

[Grumfutock]

Ah and the other puppet comes out to play, reminds me of the film Dumb and Dumber.

Once again where did I say a one state solution????

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Terms for peace?

I have no idea what would work or would not but I do know that it will not stop in its current form.

The simple fact is that Israel now exists. The question of right or wrong in 48 is now a completely mute point as Israel is not going to go away, disappear or be destroyed. They are to strong and the world would not allow it. The sooner the arabs learn to accept this and stop the terrorism then the sooner they might just all learn to live together.

Continued attacks by bombers and rockets is not the answer. No nation on earth would just sit there and take it but for some bizarre reason Israel is expected to by some on here because of some ridiculous and tenuous UN decision 70 years ago.

Stop the terrorism = stand a chance of peace.

Don't = continued land grabs and eventual defeat.

I see another way of it panning out. Currently Israel has 4 allies, but no real friends:

America. But things are at an all time low. Even the Jews in America are abandoning support for Israel.

Jordan. But relations are deteriorating.

Egypt. But Egypt is demanding a resolution to the Palestinian issue.

Iraqi Kurdistan. But only as long as no-one else will take their oil. (Turkish, Syrian and Iranian Kurds can generally be regarded as pro-Palestinian.) Note, in passing, that if NATO want a non aligned ally in the ME, the Iraqi Kurds might provide a better one than Israel.


Of threats, well, there's Hamas. There's also Hezbollah, who the IDF recon can stage a 4 month war against Israel, close most of the airports, etc. The continued marginalisation of non Jewish Israelis might ultimately result in revolt within the IDF's non Jewish troups. Jumblatt won't make the call until he believes it will be taken up, but you can bet he's looking at the 'phone, hand itching.

ISIS? FSA?

EU will probably be imposing "real" sanctions within 5 years.

If ever Israel needed a leader with balls, it's now. Instead they have Mr. Chicken-st.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Ah and the other puppet comes out to play, reminds me of the film Dumb and Dumber.

Once again where did I say a one state solution????

If there's one puppet here, in the sense of a person being manipulated by propaganda, it has to be you. You've swallowed the Israel tale more than Shalom, more than Benny Gantz!

Give us your solution, then.

[Joey Ramone]

I truly hope for peace in the Middle East. Not because I feel sympathy for the Palestinians (I really couldn't give a fk about them or their meaningless historical claims) but mainly because it might finally bring this pointless, meandering, dull-arsed thread to an end.