Discussion
At this point, let me remind you:
- Israeli use of germ warfare: no come back from Grumfutock. Sources given.
- Grumfutock said:.........the Palestinians have around 16,000,000 and the Jews are around 6,000,000........False statistics presented by Grumfutock. Countered by me by accurate links to demographic data. Grumfutock has no come back, but queries my ancestry?
- 1948 -- Israel outgunned and outmanned the Arab League. Sources given. Grumfutock briefly counters but finally cannot deny that Israel ultimately had a better than 2:1 advantage.
- The Nakba started before the end of partition. I think I've proved this conclusively. Grumfutock has yet to admit it.
- Grumfutock quotes sources but fails to see that 5.67% land ownership does not entitle the Israelis to 56% of the land when the Palestinians owned 48%.
Our "audience", followers of this thread, can judge who is the troll.
In the meantime, if you've nothing substantive to contribute, these women have a message:
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 1st November 17:29
egor110 said:
Do either of you have family either in Palestine or Israel?
It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
Shhhh...... Don't speak sense or you will spoil it!It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
To be fair, this is getting very like the actual conflict itself now with neither actually listening to the other view and factual statements being ignored and opinions twisted to perpetuate the debate/fight!
Although Grum especially on 'that side' are very evasive when asked some simple and pointed questions about 'peace'.
But there is misbehaviour on both sides now with neither side allowing a victory unless it is their own. I know that sounds silly but it seems 'not losing' is more important now?
Oh well..... I have made my own views clear and I am NOT pro Hamas etc.
egor110 said:
Do either of you have family either in Palestine or Israel?
It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
I've not. To me it's just a duty to establish the truth against a pretty all pervading myth which causes murder and brutal oppression. It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
Will it change anything?
Being here forced me to examine my own views and pre-conceptions (there's a real sense in which, as I say, Grumfutock has radicalised me). I think that opinions outside Israel will ultimately determine what happens there. Maybe following the links, or my argument, will change someone's opinion (but almost certainly not Grumfutocks).
I'd encourage anyone following this thread to read, read, read (and then examine).
I still believe that peace is possible, as is a just solution.
Germ warfare: No response because it is drivel! No credible or proven source!
1948: 15th May forces break down: Israel 29,677. This is the entire force (meaning combat troops, logistics, medics, cooks, drivers and bottle washers). Against Egypt 10000, Iraq 3000, Syria 5000, Transjordan 12000, Lebanon 1000, Saudi Arabia 1200, Yemen 300 and Arab Liberation Army 6000. Total over 38,000. This is just combat troops.
So outnumbered? I don't think so!!!!!
The Nabka started in December 1947. So what?
Land ownership is irrelevant. If you attack a country 4 times you must expect to pay a penalty if you fail. SIMPLE!
Lauded Jewish historians? No you have lauded 2 or 3 people that support your argument and belittle and dismiss any that don't.
Troll on my silly, childish, pathetic, little friend. Keep coming with the half truths, distorted facts and outright made up bulls
t. They Arabs have been doing it since 45, why should you be any different?
1948: 15th May forces break down: Israel 29,677. This is the entire force (meaning combat troops, logistics, medics, cooks, drivers and bottle washers). Against Egypt 10000, Iraq 3000, Syria 5000, Transjordan 12000, Lebanon 1000, Saudi Arabia 1200, Yemen 300 and Arab Liberation Army 6000. Total over 38,000. This is just combat troops.
So outnumbered? I don't think so!!!!!
The Nabka started in December 1947. So what?
Land ownership is irrelevant. If you attack a country 4 times you must expect to pay a penalty if you fail. SIMPLE!
Lauded Jewish historians? No you have lauded 2 or 3 people that support your argument and belittle and dismiss any that don't.
Troll on my silly, childish, pathetic, little friend. Keep coming with the half truths, distorted facts and outright made up bulls
t. They Arabs have been doing it since 45, why should you be any different?TheRealFingers99 said:
egor110 said:
Do either of you have family either in Palestine or Israel?
It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
I've not. To me it's just a duty to establish the truth against a pretty all pervading myth which causes murder and brutal oppression. It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
Will it change anything?
Being here forced me to examine my own views and pre-conceptions (there's a real sense in which, as I say, Grumfutock has radicalised me). I think that opinions outside Israel will ultimately determine what happens there. Maybe following the links, or my argument, will change someone's opinion (but almost certainly not Grumfutocks).
I'd encourage anyone following this thread to read, read, read (and then examine).
I still believe that peace is possible, as is a just solution.
k about you , they don't see you as some sort of knight in shinning armour.They both fight for real not on a forum.
Grumfutock said:
Germ warfare: No response because it is drivel! No credible or proven source!
1948: 15th May forces break down: Israel 29,677. This is the entire force (meaning combat troops, logistics, medics, cooks, drivers and bottle washers). Against Egypt 10000, Iraq 3000, Syria 5000, Transjordan 12000, Lebanon 1000, Saudi Arabia 1200, Yemen 300 and Arab Liberation Army 6000. Total over 38,000. This is just combat troops.
So outnumbered? I don't think so!!!!!
The Nabka started in December 1947. So what?
Land ownership is irrelevant. If you attack a country 4 times you must expect to pay a penalty if you fail. SIMPLE!
Lauded Jewish historians? No you have lauded 2 or 3 people that support your argument and belittle and dismiss any that don't.
Troll on my silly, childish, pathetic, little friend. Keep coming with the half truths, distorted facts and outright made up bullst. They Arabs have been doing it since 45, why should you be any different?
Do you have family in Palestine/Israeli ?1948: 15th May forces break down: Israel 29,677. This is the entire force (meaning combat troops, logistics, medics, cooks, drivers and bottle washers). Against Egypt 10000, Iraq 3000, Syria 5000, Transjordan 12000, Lebanon 1000, Saudi Arabia 1200, Yemen 300 and Arab Liberation Army 6000. Total over 38,000. This is just combat troops.
So outnumbered? I don't think so!!!!!
The Nabka started in December 1947. So what?
Land ownership is irrelevant. If you attack a country 4 times you must expect to pay a penalty if you fail. SIMPLE!
Lauded Jewish historians? No you have lauded 2 or 3 people that support your argument and belittle and dismiss any that don't.
Troll on my silly, childish, pathetic, little friend. Keep coming with the half truths, distorted facts and outright made up bulls
t. They Arabs have been doing it since 45, why should you be any different?Just interested why you feel so strongly on this subject?
TheRealFingers99 said:
egor110 said:
Do either of you have family either in Palestine or Israel?
It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
I've not. To me it's just a duty to establish the truth against a pretty all pervading myth which causes murder and brutal oppression. It's amazing how you 2 get so heated on here when it will change nothing, just 2 angry men ranting on a random forum.
egor110 said:
Do you have family in Palestine/Israeli ?
Just interested why you feel so strongly on this subject?
No but I have friends there in the LDF. Just interested why you feel so strongly on this subject?
I also have dislike of terrorist on account of fighting them myself for over 20 years. I thought I would point that out before I got the same "internet keyboard warrior" style comment you threw at Mr Finger.
Grumfutock said:
Germ warfare: No response because it is drivel! No credible or proven source!
Moyshe Dayan's son is not credible? "This crime was called operation “Shlach Lachmecha” as described by the Israeli military historian Urin Milstein [Wendy Barnaby’s “The Plague Makers: The Secret World of Biological Warfare”, London, Vision Paperbacks, 1997, pp 114-116]" See also Richard Silverstein, here. See also Ben Gurion's War Diary and ICRC G59/1/GC and G3/82. Ben Gurion is not a credible source? Grumfutock said:
1948: 15th May forces break down: Israel 29,677. This is the entire force (meaning combat troops, logistics, medics, cooks, drivers and bottle washers). Against Egypt 10000, Iraq 3000, Syria 5000, Transjordan 12000, Lebanon 1000, Saudi Arabia 1200, Yemen 300 and Arab Liberation Army 6000. Total over 38,000. This is just combat troops.
So outnumbered? I don't think so!!!!!
"By March 1948, the effective number of Arab combatants numbered 12,000.[54] The Yishuv had a numerical superiority." (reference is to Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine, vol.3, Fayard 2007 p.70) "As the war progressed, the IDF managed to field more troops than the Arab forces. In July 1948, the IDF had 63,000 troops; by early spring 1949, they had 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Isr...So outnumbered? I don't think so!!!!!
Simple, numerical advantage. To be sure, to be able to grow from under 30k in June to 108k in December (Wikipaedia has a break down of the Israeli troop strength growth) is remarkable, but from early June onwards, Israel had clear numerical superiority.
Grumfutock said:
The Nabka started in December 1947. So what?
Evidently, it started as a result of extensive Zionist pressure on the Palestinian population. The Zionist gangs wanted to depopulate Palestine of Arabs prior to the end of the Mandate.Grumfutock said:
Land ownership is irrelevant. If you attack a country 4 times you must expect to pay a penalty if you fail. SIMPLE!
Relevant to the justice of the UN partition plan. Why should the Palestinians pay a penalty for Israel's wars with neighbouring states BTW? Grumfutock said:
Lauded Jewish historians? No you have lauded 2 or 3 people that support your argument and belittle and dismiss any that don't.
You've yet to quote any that don't! Indeed, you've yet to quote any! What distinguishes the New Historians from the others is that they opened up and looked at the Israeli documents which were previously held secret. Without recourse to those documents (and that pretty much rules out anything written prior to 2000, although Morris published some stuff before) you can't write an accurate history. Simple. Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 1st November 19:54
1. How strange. The SAME link also says 38,000 for the Arabs! Oh and the war started in May so July is a little far off. If they had been any good they would of won long before the Israeli's could field more numbers. By the same principle the Arabs didn't replace their loses so as they got their arses spank of course their numbers went down. A bit like saying England out numbered the Germans in WW2!
2. Yes. Not credible! Try reading the link before you post! 2 plans. 1st was cancelled after a tube of typhus broke and Dayan's son caught it. 2nd was discovered and foiled! So no, on reflection, the Israeli's have NOT carried out germ warfare! Your own evidence states exactly that!
3. " Why should the Palestinians pay a penalty for Israel's wars with neighbouring states BTW?"
Because they have been involved in everyone of those wars!
I really don't enjoy making you look so foolish, it is ceasing to be a challenge!
Good night silly person.
2. Yes. Not credible! Try reading the link before you post! 2 plans. 1st was cancelled after a tube of typhus broke and Dayan's son caught it. 2nd was discovered and foiled! So no, on reflection, the Israeli's have NOT carried out germ warfare! Your own evidence states exactly that!
3. " Why should the Palestinians pay a penalty for Israel's wars with neighbouring states BTW?"
Because they have been involved in everyone of those wars!
I really don't enjoy making you look so foolish, it is ceasing to be a challenge!
Good night silly person.
Grumfutock said:
egor110 said:
Do you have family in Palestine/Israeli ?
Just interested why you feel so strongly on this subject?
No but I have friends there in the LDF. Just interested why you feel so strongly on this subject?
I also have dislike of terrorist on account of fighting them myself for over 20 years. I thought I would point that out before I got the same "internet keyboard warrior" style comment you threw at Mr Finger.
You are here/now a internet keyboard warrior, nothing you write on here makes any difference to those living in the 2 mentioned countries.
Grumfutock said:
1. How strange. The SAME link also says 38,000 for the Arabs! Oh and the war started in May so July is a little far off. If they had been any good they would of won long before the Israeli's could field more numbers. By the same principle the Arabs didn't replace their loses so as they got their arses spank of course their numbers went down. A bit like saying England out numbered the Germans in WW2!
Figures went up and down. Such is recruitment/mobilisation. But the myth of overwhelming Arab superiority is a complete and utter myth (as you hint yourself by demeaning their military prowess). The best army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, pretty much ruled themselves out of the initial conflict (give us the West Bank and we'll keep out of it). Only later did the Israelis renege on the agreement, and the Arab Legion pretty much fought them to a standstill.
Grumfutock said:
2. Yes. Not credible! Try reading the link before you post! 2 plans. 1st was cancelled after a tube of typhus broke and Dayan's son caught it. 2nd was discovered and foiled! So no, on reflection, the Israeli's have NOT carried out germ warfare! Your own evidence states exactly that!
Two attempts were thwarted. They are evidence only of intent. (Hang on. you're now accepting my sources as credible!) However, the operation “Shlach Lachmecha” on Acre did take place, "This crime of poisoning Acre’s water supply leading to the fall of the city, the forceful evacuation of its inhabitants, and the looting of its treasures, whetted the appetite of the Zionists to repeat the crime. They tried it again in Gaza against the Egyptian forces, but failed." There were 55 British casualties, apparently. There's also evidence of germ warfare against Egypt and Syria. Grumfutock said:
3. " Why should the Palestinians pay a penalty for Israel's wars with neighbouring states BTW?"
Because they have been involved in everyone of those wars!
Because they have been involved in everyone of those wars!
Evidence?
egor110 said:
You've been fighting terrorists for over 20 years? as a member of which countries armed forces?
You are here/now a internet keyboard warrior, nothing you write on here makes any difference to those living in the 2 mentioned countries.
Did either us say it did? Does a football pundit or fan make any difference to the game but are they not allowed to discuss it?You are here/now a internet keyboard warrior, nothing you write on here makes any difference to those living in the 2 mentioned countries.
What exactly is your problem?
Grumfutock said:
egor110 said:
You've been fighting terrorists for over 20 years? as a member of which countries armed forces?
You are here/now a internet keyboard warrior, nothing you write on here makes any difference to those living in the 2 mentioned countries.
Did either us say it did? Does a football pundit or fan make any difference to the game but are they not allowed to discuss it?You are here/now a internet keyboard warrior, nothing you write on here makes any difference to those living in the 2 mentioned countries.
What exactly is your problem?
I could maybe understand it if you were jewish/muslim lost family during the dispute but neither of you have.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Figures went up and down. Such is recruitment/mobilisation. But the myth of overwhelming Arab superiority is a complete and utter myth (as you hint yourself by demeaning their military prowess). The best army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, pretty much ruled themselves out of the initial conflict (give us the West Bank and we'll keep out of it). Only later did the Israelis renege on the agreement, and the Arab Legion pretty much fought them to a standstill.
It is historically traditional to use the figures at the start of a war/battle. But as usual you seem to want to rewrite the rules.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Two attempts were thwarted. They are evidence only of intent. (Hang on. you're now accepting my sources as credible!) However, the operation “Shlach Lachmecha” on Acre did take place, "This crime of poisoning Acre’s water supply leading to the fall of the city, the forceful evacuation of its inhabitants, and the looting of its treasures, whetted the appetite of the Zionists to repeat the crime. They tried it again in Gaza against the Egyptian forces, but failed." There were 55 British casualties, apparently. There's also evidence of germ warfare against Egypt and Syria.
So they didn't take place then??????? Ah! Thought so.
As for Acre, so what if it did? It was 70 years ago! Many countries have used far worst since then.
And what of the atrocities carried out by your friends? Executions and torture of Israeli soldiers by Syria and Egypt? But I am sure they were legitimate acts of war weren't they!
TheRealFingers99 said:
Evidence?
6 day war, PLO! 1948!
egor110 said:
I haven't got any problem, it just amuses me when people get so animated so heated over a topic that doesn't concern them and then decides a motoring forum is the place to play out this war of words.
I could maybe understand it if you were jewish/muslim lost family during the dispute but neither of you have.
Fairly sure neither of use have discussed with you our religion. Equally sure that we haven't discussed losing anyone close either.I could maybe understand it if you were jewish/muslim lost family during the dispute but neither of you have.
Oh and for future info, this is called the "News, Politics, and Economics forum". The thread is called Israeli! That should give you a clue about the subject matter. Motors are in other sections.
If it is something you don't want to read or are interested in then may I suggest that you don't get involved, read it or post on it.
Out of mild curiosity I notice you have posted in the Plod section (Town Police Clauses Act 1847 - street closure) are you a policeman? You also posted in the discussion on Russia. Are you Russian or Ukrainian?
No, didn't think so.
Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 1st November 20:49
Grumfutock said:
egor110 said:
I haven't got any problem, it just amuses me when people get so animated so heated over a topic that doesn't concern them and then decides a motoring forum is the place to play out this war of words.
I could maybe understand it if you were jewish/muslim lost family during the dispute but neither of you have.
Fairly sure neither of use have discussed with you our religion. Equally sure that we haven't discussed losing anyone close either.I could maybe understand it if you were jewish/muslim lost family during the dispute but neither of you have.
Oh and for future info, this is called the "News, Politics, and Economics forum". The thread is called Israeli! That should give you a clue about the subject matter. Motors are in other sections.
If it is something you don't want to read or are interested in then may I suggest that you don't get involved, read it or post on it.
Out of mild curiosity I notice you have posted in the Plod section (Town Police Clauses Act 1847 - street closure) are you a policeman? You also posted in the discussion on Russia. Are you Russian or Ukrainian?
No, didn't think so.
Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 1st November 20:49
I notice you've posted in the oscar pistorius trial, are you south african? i also don't think your a naked rambler or that you'll ever fly to space in the bransons spaceship however i do think you may of been in the marines.
Anyway i'll leave you and realfingers to carry on the good fight.
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