Israeli

[Grumfutock]

egor110 said:

Your sparring partner (realfingers99) has come clean and stated he has no relations in the disputed region.

I notice you've posted in the oscar pistorius trial, are you south african? i also don't think your a naked rambler or that you'll ever fly to space in the bransons spaceship however i do think you may of been in the marines.

Anyway i'll leave you and realfingers to carry on the good fight.

Your point was that we aren't Israeli/Arab and yet we comment on it was it not? I was just pointing out that you don't have to be to have an opinion or a desire to express it.

And it was Army not the cabbage patch boys.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Figures went up and down. Such is recruitment/mobilisation. But the myth of overwhelming Arab superiority is a complete and utter myth (as you hint yourself by demeaning their military prowess). The best army, the Jordanian Arab Legion, pretty much ruled themselves out of the initial conflict (give us the West Bank and we'll keep out of it). Only later did the Israelis renege on the agreement, and the Arab Legion pretty much fought them to a standstill.

It is historically traditional to use the figures at the start of a war/battle. But as usual you seem to want to rewrite the rules.

There are rules? Really? Where are they written? Any road up, at a rough reconning, take the Arab Legion out of the equation and you have pretty much equality at the beginning of the war, massive Israeli superiority toward the end. The myth is busted.

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Two attempts were thwarted. They are evidence only of intent. (Hang on. you're now accepting my sources as credible!) However, the operation “Shlach Lachmecha” on Acre did take place, "This crime of poisoning Acre’s water supply leading to the fall of the city, the forceful evacuation of its inhabitants, and the looting of its treasures, whetted the appetite of the Zionists to repeat the crime. They tried it again in Gaza against the Egyptian forces, but failed." There were 55 British casualties, apparently. There's also evidence of germ warfare against Egypt and Syria.

So they didn't take place then??????? Ah! Thought so.

As for Acre, so what if it did? It was 70 years ago! Many countries have used far worst since then.

Many countries have committed acts of terrorism and ethnic cleansing. But it's necessary to condemn them (just as you've, rightly, condemned the Serbs), and to point out to Zionist zealots that poor little Israel was not so poor, little or innocent, and, where possible, to bring suspects to trial.

Grumfutock said:

And what of the atrocities carried out by your friends? Executions and torture of Israeli soldiers by Syria and Egypt? But I am sure they were legitimate acts of war weren't they!

Of course they were not. Nor are they "my friends". All sides committed acts of brutality. All are despicable. Only poor little Israel committed planned and calculated acts of ethnic cleansing and germ warfare. Only Israel seeks so hard to hide it.

TheRealFingers99 said:

Evidence?

Grumfutock said:

6 day war, PLO! 1948!

That's not evidence, it's assertion by Grumfutock.

I'll grant you limited Palestinian resistance in the '48 war. I'll grant you attacks by the PLO during the War of Attrition. But most of the territorial fighting between the PLO and Israel took place in Lebanon, not in Israel. Of course, Israel occupied Lebanon (up to Beruit) -- maybe they'd have liked to stay (I'm sure South Lebanon was once part of a Jewish Kingdom, and, hey, the land is more fertile) -- until Hezbollah convinced them it wasn't, really, such a good idea.

If you like war films, BTW, Beaufort deals with the IDF in the former Crusader Castle and the retreat from Lebanon, Waltz with Bashir with the invasion, Samuel Maoz's 2009 film Lebanon (there are others with the same title) with an Israeli tank crew (possibly the inspiration for Fury). Only Waltz with Bashir is likely to have you spitting feathers, Grumfutock, all good Israeli films.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 1st November 22:13

[Grumfutock]

Oh I see so you now refuse to accept the normal rules of judging history. There really is no hope for you then.

Why not just say that Poland invade Germany in 39, Nelson lost at Trafalgar and Genghis Khan was an all round good egg and humanitarian.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Oh I see so you now refuse to accept the normal rules of judging history. There really is no hope for you then.

Why not just say that Poland invade Germany in 39, Nelson lost at Trafalgar and Genghis Khan was an all round good egg and humanitarian.

Don't be nuts. "The normal rules of judging history"? Where are they? I merely ask where it's written that we take into account only troop strengths at the start of a conflict.

I also imply that we need to use all the sources available. Where there are documents that have only recently been released, we need to use them.

Did you see "The Day Israel Attacked America"? You can find it on line here. Let's use that as an example.

Previous analysis had (with some reservations) followed the joint US/Israeli line that the attack on the USS Liberty (by Israeli jets and torpedo boats, in International Waters) had been a terrible accident -- the Israelis had somehow mistaken it for an Egyptian naval vessel, in poor visibility, the fog of war, and due to Israeli incompetence, the allied vessel had been repeatedly attacked.

However, the voice tapes of conversations from the Israeli pilots to their command centre (recently found) show that the identity of the vessel was well known by the attackers, the reports of those who were there that the weather was clear (the Americans were even sunbathing on deck when the attack started).

At this point we need to reconsider and re-write history.

The new evidence forces us to re-assess (to "re-judge" if you like) what really happened and why.

I know of no such evidence re. the Battle of Trafalgar, the Invasion of Poland (although there was some Nazi spin around that!) or Ghenghis Khan. But should it emerge, we still need to reconsider. History is, after all, a search for truth, not a quest for the fossilisation of national myth.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Sunday 2nd November 18:46

[TheRealFingers99]

NETANYAHU URGED BY 106 RETIRED SECURITY STAFF TO MAKE PEACE.

Rather differently, interesting interview with Yaakov Peri (ex Head of Shin Bet, now Israel’s minister of science) in the Times of Israel.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 3rd November 20:54

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 3rd November 21:33

[Slaav]

TheRealFingers99 said:

NETANYAHU URGED BY 106 RETIRED SECURITY STAFF TO MAKE PEACE.

Rather differently, interesting interview with Yaakov Peri (ex Head of Shin Bet, now Israel’s minister of science) in the Times of Israel.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 3rd November 20:54

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Monday 3rd November 21:33

Both quite stunning links - thanks for these.

I must admit that I am starting to experience a little fatigue on this thread which disappoints me and surprises me.

When two main sides/foes are so obviously entrenched (even though I may agree with one of them) I fear no common ground will ever be found?

Taking a quote/link out of both links, it will take a brave man to make peace!

[TheRealFingers99]

Indeed.

We can only hope.

I have to admit that the only inspirational politics I see at the moment are from the Rojava (the Kurdish cantons of Syrian Kurdistan) and those are under massive threat still.

[Slaav]

Ah but what are you prepared to concede to make peace with Grum?

[TheRealFingers99]

Not a lot!

Grum is somewhere toward the right of Livni (who still doesn't want a sovereign Palestinian state although she's not the blunt and immovable object Netanyahu is).

[Transmitter Man]

I wonder if Bibi is not a larger object that what you imagine in that he nearly had the majority of voting Israeli's behind him at the last election?

Phil

[Slaav]

Transmitter Man said:

I wonder if Bibi is not a larger object that what you imagine in that he nearly had the majority of voting Israeli's behind him at the last election?

Phil

Worryingly is he (Bibi) simply straying away from the peace process in order to remain in charge?
Or does he have a bigger plan? Is he simply building greater support to then slowly change direction whilst dragging hi supporters along with him to the negotiating table?

We can but dream.....

[rohrl]

Slaav said:

Worryingly is he (Bibi) simply straying away from the peace process in order to remain in charge?
Or does he have a bigger plan? Is he simply building greater support to then slowly change direction whilst dragging hi supporters along with him to the negotiating table?

We can but dream.....

Will Bibi have the guts to do what we could call "doing an Ariel Sharon"? I somehow doubt it personally. The US government certainly don't seem to think he has the courage.

[Mrr T]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Previous analysis had (with some reservations) followed the joint US/Israeli line that the attack on the USS Liberty (by Israeli jets and torpedo boats, in International Waters) had been a terrible accident -- the Israelis had somehow mistaken it for an Egyptian naval vessel, in poor visibility, the fog of war, and due to Israeli incompetence, the allied vessel had been repeatedly attacked.

However, the voice tapes of conversations from the Israeli pilots to their command centre (recently found) show that the identity of the vessel was well known by the attackers, the reports of those who were there that the weather was clear (the Americans were even sunbathing on deck when the attack started).

Are are referring to transcripts obtained from the NSA by Jay Cristol?

If so they showed no such thing.

[TheRealFingers99]

Mrr T said:

Are are referring to transcripts obtained from the NSA by Jay Cristol?

If so they showed no such thing.

I don't know what you're referring to. They did play the voice recordings. But see the film (it's not overly long), draw your own conclusions. Here I'm using it as an example.

[TheRealFingers99]

Transmitter Man said:

I wonder if Bibi is not a larger object that what you imagine in that he nearly had the majority of voting Israeli's behind him at the last election?

Phil

I don't get you. For sure, Bibi was popular, but his government is a coalition. The comparison I draw is between the relatively progressive Litvi and Grumfutock: there are certainly Israeli MPs (and cabinet members) to the right of Bibi Netanyahu.

[zuby84]

I'll give Grum this much that he has managed to seemingly excellently defend his corner through illogical and straw man like arguments.

Kind of reminds me of something...

[Mrr T]

Mrr T said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Previous analysis had (with some reservations) followed the joint US/Israeli line that the attack on the USS Liberty (by Israeli jets and torpedo boats, in International Waters) had been a terrible accident -- the Israelis had somehow mistaken it for an Egyptian naval vessel, in poor visibility, the fog of war, and due to Israeli incompetence, the allied vessel had been repeatedly attacked.

However, the voice tapes of conversations from the Israeli pilots to their command centre (recently found) show that the identity of the vessel was well known by the attackers, the reports of those who were there that the weather was clear (the Americans were even sunbathing on deck when the attack started).

Are are referring to transcripts obtained from the NSA by Jay Cristol?

If so they showed no such thing.

TheRealFingers99 said:

Mrr T said:

Are are referring to transcripts obtained from the NSA by Jay Cristol?

If so they showed no such thing.

I don't know what you're referring to. They did play the voice recordings. But see the film (it's not overly long), draw your own conclusions. Here I'm using it as an example.

So now you say a film includes a voice recording of the attach. I have checked and I cannot see this any where else on the web, despite numerous reports,enquires into the attach.

So I suggest the recording in the movie is fiction.

So now you say a film includes a voice recording of the attack.

I have checked and I cannot see this any where else on the web, despite numerous reports,enquires into the attach.

The only transcript is the one I referred to and is not of the attach.

If you can find I link which proves the recording are authenticated I will of cause change my position but at the moment I suggest the recording in the movie is fiction.

[nitrodave]

if realfingers99 read in da internetz IT MUST BE TRUE!

[AndStilliRise]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Did you see "The Day Israel Attacked America"? You can find it on line here. Let's use that as an example.

Just watched it, fascinating. Its amazing to see how low the Israelis can go. It was quite good just to see the facts represented. There was no assertion to the reason why they killed so many Americans in cold blood. Those veterans are still hurting today. The part about shoveling the bodies and equipment was pretty horrific.

...and all because they don't have any soil on the Earth..

Still think they are pissed off because they started worshiping the cow and got expelled. What was the reason, because the Israelis became impatient with Mosses not returning from the burning bush. Even today they suffer impatience.

[TheRealFingers99]

nitrodave said:

if realfingers99 read in da internetz IT MUST BE TRUE!

I'll just ask once. Did you make the supreme effort and watch the film?