Israeli

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Grumfutock said:

Yes ISIS just murder prisoners and commit all round genocide. Hamas on the other hand just....oh no wait, they do kill prisoners and want to commit genocide.

Oh and just for your info, every army in the world uses WP. It is in flares and is used to mark targets. Flechettes are used by nearly every army and human shields, well Hamas do that every single day!

ISIS commit genocide, ethnic cleansing, torture, rape, mutilation, the killing of prisoners and the selling of women as slaves. Apart from the last one, all crimes committed by the nice Zionists during the Nakba and the 48 war.

The IDF use human shields on a regular basis in Gaza -- it's well documented by Breaking the Silence and not simply a matter of fighting in one of the most densely populated areas of the world. The IDF have used white phosphorous in broad daylight in heavily populated areas -- including one attack on a UN facility. They have no need whatsoever with GPS to mark targets with it: they have far more accurate methods.

TheRealFingers99 said:

For the sake of argument, were all the Palestinian groups to disarm, what would happen? What would Grum propose?

Answer the question!

So Hamas haven't vowed to remove Israel from the face of the earth? Denied them the right to exist? How would you describe that then? If they ever won a war against Israel do you honestly think they would just ask them to get on ships and leave???? They have and continue to kill prisoners in summary executions, Israeli and their own, well documented fact, as is the Arab actions since the 30's.

Every time Hamas fire a rocket or mortar from a habituated area they are using human shields, again a very well documented fact, so that will be every rocket and mortar they fire then!!!

"They have no need whatsoever with GPS to mark targets with it: they have far more accurate methods."

Utter rubbish. Not how it works at all. Great if you have laser acquired targets but sadly that only works from the ground if you have clear line of sight. WP is used by all armies, regularly.

In May 2009, Colonel Gregory Julian, a spokesman for General David McKiernan, the overall commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, confirmed that Western military forces in Afghanistan use white phosphorus in order to illuminate targets or as an incendiary to destroy bunkers and enemy equipment.
NATO also used it in Libya in 2011. Statements like that make your utter ignorance of military capabilities obvious.

[TheRealFingers99]

Hang on, where have I argued against your assertions about Hamas?

My point is rather that

a. ISIS are a dirtier enemy than Hamas.
b. The Kurds have not used the questionable military means the IDF use against Hamas against the dirtier enemy (ISIS)
c. ISIS commit genocide, ethnic cleansing, torture, rape, mutilation, the killing of prisoners and the selling of women as slaves. Apart from the last one, all these crimes were committed by the nice Zionists during the Nakba and the 48 war.
d. The IDF routinely use human shields -- by choice -- not because they happen to be fighting from a heavily populated area.

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

"They have no need whatsoever with GPS to mark targets with it: they have far more accurate methods."

Utter rubbish. Not how it works at all. Great if you have laser acquired targets but sadly that only works from the ground if you have clear line of sight. WP is used by all armies, regularly.

In May 2009, Colonel Gregory Julian, a spokesman for General David McKiernan, the overall commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, confirmed that Western military forces in Afghanistan use white phosphorus in order to illuminate targets or as an incendiary to destroy bunkers and enemy equipment.
NATO also used it in Libya in 2011. Statements like that make your utter ignorance of military capabilities obvious.

You may be correct. I'd thought that the IDF had capabilities at least equal to those of the US M1 and M2.

Nevertheless, this hardly explains the well documented use of white phosphorous against civilian populated areas and UN facilities.

And you've still not answered the question: For the sake of argument, were all the Palestinian groups to disarm, what would happen? What would Grum propose?

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 7th November 20:13

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

And you've still not answered the question: For the sake of argument, were all the Palestinian groups to disarm, what would happen? What would Grum propose?

That they all move to Iran

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

That they all move to Iran

Terrific. They don't even speak the same language.

So, it's status quo?

[Slaav]

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

And you've still not answered the question: For the sake of argument, were all the Palestinian groups to disarm, what would happen? What would Grum propose?

That they all move to Iran

Let us assume that Grum is being serious here? If we do..... Then God help us as I fear that it strikes to a core belief and extreme view that the World needs to deal with.

Does Israel really want that? Really?

Eventually, the RoW will have to step in!

There are Israelis and Jews that fear for the future of Israel. I do as well if Grum is not an isolated example.... Again assuming he is being serious?

Please let us not go down that path where the RoW has no choice.....

[TheRealFingers99]

RoW ?

[dudleybloke]

Filthy Oar.

[Slaav]

TheRealFingers99 said:

RoW ?

Sorry - Rest of the World!

[Transmitter Man]

Slaav said:

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

There are Israelis and Jews that fear for the future of Israel. I do as well if Grum is not an isolated example.... Again assuming he is being serious?

It's for this reason why most Israeli's live for the day and do not save for a rainy one - they enjoy their lives, the luxury consumer goods, nice cars and foreign travel.

Reading this thread I think just one or two views may change somewhat if you go and live in Israel for a while.

Ashkelon's as good a place as anywhere, a few kilometres from Gaza should do it.

Phil

[Grumfutock]

Grumfutock said:

That they all move to Iran

No it was not a serious answer but sarcastic, as already pointed out they don't even speak the language.

They should go to Syria and Egypt instead .

On a different note perhaps efforts might be focussed on the Palestinians learning to live with each other before everyone try's to solve world peace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-299525...

Get rid of Hamas and everything else will follow. They are the root, the cause and the reason for all the trouble.

Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 8th November 08:25

[Slaav]

Grumfutock said:

Get rid of Hamas and everything else will follow. They are the root, the cause and the reason for all the trouble.

Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 8th November 08:25

If Israel were to stop expanding their illegal settlements, relax their blockades and sanctions and actually show some genuine gestures towards peace, then the Hamas and the rogue radicals will lose their whole reason for existing! Starve the extremists of their oxygen....

Palestinian authorities have an uphill struggle controlling their more extreme factions when their efforts to negotiate seem to be regarded as completely ineffectual and little more than appeasement to the illegal occupying forces?

Israel needs to show some olive branches and cease their illegal and forceful expansion. Stop the Zionist expansion, show some contrition and everything else MAY follow. These policies 'are the root, the cause and the reason for all the troubles'

[Grumfutock]

Slaav said:

If Israel were to stop expanding their illegal settlements, relax their blockades and sanctions and actually show some genuine gestures towards peace, then the Hamas and the rogue radicals will lose their whole reason for existing! Starve the extremists of their oxygen....

Palestinian authorities have an uphill struggle controlling their more extreme factions when their efforts to negotiate seem to be regarded as completely ineffectual and little more than appeasement to the illegal occupying forces?

Israel needs to show some olive branches and cease their illegal and forceful expansion. Stop the Zionist expansion, show some contrition and everything else MAY follow. These policies 'are the root, the cause and the reason for all the troubles'

Or Hamas will claim that their methods are working and gain even more power and support, thus encouraging more attacks.

You do not offer an olive branch to terrorists, they only see it as a weakness and try to exploit it.

[Slaav]

Grumfutock said:

Or Hamas will claim that their methods are working and gain even more power and support, thus encouraging more attacks.

You do not offer an olive branch to terrorists, they only see it as a weakness and try to exploit it.

Fair point and I am sure that Hamas and the other extremists (it isn't just Hamas that are the problem on the Palistinian side) would try this tactic. As you say, any perceived weakness will be used against Israel!

The point is though that you simply have to give the more moderate Palistinians something to work with.... Palistinians need to 'defeat' Hamas, not the evil IDF oppressors. History tells us that surely?

[Grumfutock]

Slaav said:

Fair point and I am sure that Hamas and the other extremists (it isn't just Hamas that are the problem on the Palistinian side) would try this tactic. As you say, any perceived weakness will be used against Israel!

The point is though that you simply have to give the more moderate Palistinians something to work with.... Palistinians need to 'defeat' Hamas, not the evil IDF oppressors. History tells us that surely?

Correct and that is why Israel sent weapons and ammo to Abbas, Jordan and Egypt helped train his Presidential Guard and the US and UK fund it.

[Slaav]

Grumfutock said:

Slaav said:

Fair point and I am sure that Hamas and the other extremists (it isn't just Hamas that are the problem on the Palistinian side) would try this tactic. As you say, any perceived weakness will be used against Israel!

The point is though that you simply have to give the more moderate Palistinians something to work with.... Palistinians need to 'defeat' Hamas, not the evil IDF oppressors. History tells us that surely?

Correct and that is why Israel sent weapons and ammo to Abbas, Jordan and Egypt helped train his Presidential Guard and the US and UK fund it.

Have we just agreed with each other? (Including the bit about giving the moderates something to work with? )

[Grumfutock]

Slaav said:

Have we just agreed with each other? (Including the bit about giving the moderates something to work with? )

I have never disputed it. All through this thread I have stated that Israel have helped Abbas, sadly it was ignored. As has the fact that my entire argument is that Israel cannot negotiate with terrorists and must have the right to defend herself. I have repeatedly said that no other nation would accept rocket attacks, mortars or suicide bombings without retaliation.

Palestine is the result of the failed Arab policy of active warfare against Israel. They tried to destroy her through military conquest and failed, repeatedly. As a result of these wars Israel has gained strategic lands that help prevent any repeats of this aggressive action. And yet Israel is expected to pull back and let them reoccupy those lands and allow the reoccupation of these lands and the possibility of further attacks?
As it stands the Arab world now try to achieve the same through clandestine funding terrorism.

Now you can argue all you want about 1948 and if Israel should of been created. Simple fact is that it was and by the UN. Accept it, deal with it and move on because it sure as hell isn't going to go away now!

[DocJock]

Grumfutock said:

You do not offer an olive branch to terrorists, they only see it as a weakness and try to exploit it.

I used to feel that way whilst serving in the eighties.

If that were the case however, the state of Israel would never have been established and our squaddies would still be pounding the beat in Northern Ireland to give just two examples.

[Grumfutock]

DocJock said:

Grumfutock said:

You do not offer an olive branch to terrorists, they only see it as a weakness and try to exploit it.

I used to feel that way whilst serving in the eighties.

If that were the case however, the state of Israel would never have been established and our squaddies would still be pounding the beat in Northern Ireland to give just two examples.

Not so. The IRA lost the support of the people = they lost!

[Slaav]

Grumfutock said:

DocJock said:

Grumfutock said:

You do not offer an olive branch to terrorists, they only see it as a weakness and try to exploit it.

I used to feel that way whilst serving in the eighties.

If that were the case however, the state of Israel would never have been established and our squaddies would still be pounding the beat in Northern Ireland to give just two examples.

Not so. The IRA lost the support of the people = they lost!

Concessions were made! And I hated that fact personally but it is hard to argue that we are not in a better place now!

Concessions need to be made now. Israel has to make some meaningful concessions. Arming the moderates and supporting them will not work alone. The militants and extremists have to 'lose the people' and that will never happen when the people feel and believe they are being oppressed and victimised.

It won't be a purely military solution - they rarely (if ever) are!

We accuse the moderates of not controlling Hamas etc, but seriously, how can they when the groundswell of opinion is one that plays to the extremists due to Israel's actions?

Holding a cease fire - and a fragile one - for peace talks to appease the UN etc whilst simultaneously announcing further expansion, land grab and completely new settlements is a strange way to behave.....

[Grumfutock]

Slaav said:

Concessions were made! And I hated that fact personally but it is hard to argue that we are not in a better place now!

Concessions need to be made now. Israel has to make some meaningful concessions. Arming the moderates and supporting them will not work alone. The militants and extremists have to 'lose the people' and that will never happen when the people feel and believe they are being oppressed and victimised.

It won't be a purely military solution - they rarely (if ever) are!

We accuse the moderates of not controlling Hamas etc, but seriously, how can they when the groundswell of opinion is one that plays to the extremists due to Israel's actions?

Holding a cease fire - and a fragile one - for peace talks to appease the UN etc whilst simultaneously announcing further expansion, land grab and completely new settlements is a strange way to behave.....

Concessions were made ONLY when the IRA had renounced violence and started to disarm. To me that isn't a concession it is a reward.

I would also point out that yes, Israel is grabbing more land etc but Hamas are also firing missiles and killing babies. And you really think the Israeli's are of a mind to be nice?