Israeli

[Countdown]

Mermaid said:

So the trend over the last 10 years has been..... get real and deal with the hand you have got & optimise it rather than keep bhing about it.

The trend has been to keep changing the hand that is being dealt, little by little, whilst proclaiming innocence, despite even the USA condemning the dealing.

[Mermaid]

So get a fking deal done now, tomorrow will not be a better day. Renounce violence, moral high ground, enlist support of the people at the top table and get mega inward investment. Move on, the Israelis are a not a push over. Most Muslims side with the Palestinians,any who spoke against?

[Countdown]

Mermaid said:

So get a fking deal done now, tomorrow will not be a better day. Renounce violence, moral high ground, enlist support of the people at the top table and get mega inward investment. Move on, the Israelis are a not a push over. Most Muslims side with the Palestinians,any who spoke against?

There IS NO DEAL. Not sure why you and others can't see that. The only "deal" is permanent Israeli annexation of the whole West Bank. Netanyahu has admitted this PUBLICALLY. Now the Istaelis and their erstwhile apologists would prefer that the Palestinians simply roll pver and accept this. For some strange reason they would rather resist than surrender unconditionally.

It's a bit like blaming the Jews for the holocaust, saying if only they'd accepted what Adolf wanted "because tomorrow will not be a better day and he wasn't a pushover". The point was Adolf wasn't interested in doing a deal. He wanted to get rid of the Jews.

[Grumfutock]

Mermaid said:

So get a fking deal done now, tomorrow will not be a better day. Renounce violence, moral high ground, enlist support of the people at the top table and get mega inward investment. Move on, the Israelis are a not a push over. Most Muslims side with the Palestinians,any who spoke against?

Not on old chap. You see that wouldn't suit the religion of peace one little bit. Israel must and will be eradicated! That is their mantra all over the Arabic world. Never going to happen, maybe in 48, but not now and they just cant let it go.

Sadly this whole point sails straight over the head of the pro terrorism lot on here although I suspect not all of them are white Christians so it wouldn't fit their agenda I guess.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Not on old chap. You see that wouldn't suit the religion of peace one little bit. Israel must and will be eradicated! That is their mantra all over the Arabic world. Never going to happen, maybe in 48, but not now and they just cant let it go.

.

Repeating bullst ad infinitum doesn't make it any less brown or smelly, I'm afraid. The Palestinians have recognised Israelis right to exist and a two state solution. But don let the facts get in your way.

[Mermaid]

Countdown said:

There IS NO DEAL. Not sure why you and others can't see that. The only "deal" is permanent Israeli annexation of the whole West Bank. Netanyahu has admitted this PUBLICALLY. Now the Istaelis and their erstwhile apologists would prefer that the Palestinians simply roll pver and accept this. For some strange reason they would rather resist than surrender unconditionally.

In 2014 now.

How's the resistance been going last few decades? And do you see it changing EVER?

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

The Zionists didn't "invade" anyone's home. ????? WTF are you on about now?

They lived in Palestine for 1,000s of years and after mass extermination many migrated there after WW2, encouraged by the rest of the world, so how is that invading????? The UN, yes the same UN that your often refer to as passing resolutions against Israel, created Israel. Your Arab friends then invaded them, repeatedly, and continue to try to achieve the same i.e. the destruction and murder of every Jew in Israel.

The flaw in their plan was that they weren't and aren't very good at fighting so the Israeli's kicked their collective arse's and continue to do the same. Somehow this has become, in your twisted mind, the fault of the Jew!

You say you are an atheist but then you also say you are a Jew and a Romany and, as I have already stated, I don't believe a word of it. Sorry to rain on your false humanitarian parade but your false morals and thinly veiled hatred of Israel cannot be claimed or masked as some form of love for your fellow man.

Edited by Grumfutock on Saturday 22 November 13:12

Come on. There were a handful of Jews living in Palestine. There was then the "invasion" (OK, probably not the correct term) under the influence of the primitive nationalist doctrine of Zionism.

The stuff you prattle out about the war and Israel's right to the land as a result (a pretty barbaric concept by any 20C standards, BWTH) leaves out:

• the Zionist rejection of a one state solution
• Plan Dalet and its implementation -- the ethnic cleansing of Palestine: murder, rape, torture, germ warfare (the bride is married -- let's arrange the divorce)
• the Zionist land grab, which occurred prior to the end of the British Mandate
• the creation of a sham democracy in which not all Israeli citizens are considered equal
• a brutal, oppressive occupying power

I don't really care what you think of me -- in my opinion you died as a human being many, many years ago. If you can regain your humanity, I'll listen.

Fortunately for Israel, your views are too right wing to be taken seriously by the majority of Israelis. Fortunately for Israelis, they're too right wing to be taken seriously by Jews. You reveal yourself for what you are -- a Zionist so besotted with the object of his affections that he'd sooner see her die than talk to another.

Incidentally, you've still not answered my point regarding the status of non Jewish Israelis. Will you and your cohort campaign for equality for them, or do you want them banished to complete the ethnic cleansing?

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Grumfutock said:

Not on old chap. You see that wouldn't suit the religion of peace one little bit. Israel must and will be eradicated! That is their mantra all over the Arabic world. Never going to happen, maybe in 48, but not now and they just cant let it go.

.

Repeating bullst ad infinitum doesn't make it any less brown or smelly, I'm afraid. The Palestinians have recognised Israelis right to exist and a two state solution. But don let the facts get in your way.

But repeating that Israel is a brutal terrorist state is OK? You appear to use the same double standard system of logic as Hamas, are you a member?

And one small point, Hamas haven't recognised Israel's right to exist now have they? More typical propaganda and spin. Yes the PLO have ALLEGEDLY changed their charter, nobody really knows for sure, but Hamas have not. Seeing as how Hamas run half of the territory I would put it to you that Israel is very much still denied it's right to exist!

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Come on. There were a handful of Jews living in Palestine. There was then the "invasion" (OK, probably not the correct term) under the influence of the primitive nationalist doctrine of Zionism.

The stuff you prattle out about the war and Israel's right to the land as a result (a pretty barbaric concept by any 20C standards, BWTH) leaves out:

• the Zionist rejection of a one state solution
• Plan Dalet and its implementation -- the ethnic cleansing of Palestine: murder, rape, torture, germ warfare (the bride is married -- let's arrange the divorce)
• the Zionist land grab, which occurred prior to the end of the British Mandate
• the creation of a sham democracy in which not all Israeli citizens are considered equal
• a brutal, oppressive occupying power

• You missed the bit where the Arabs rejected the two state plan, (conveniently).
• You missed the bit where the Arabs did the same but I guess that's fine for them to do it.
• You missed the bit where the Arabs publically state they would slaughter all the Jews. And your surprised when they grab land as a defensive buffer?
• Creation of a democracy by the UN, that's the UN! But hey, lets blame that on the Jews as well!
• Many brutal and oppressive neighbouring powers that repeatedly attack you. Really fail to see hope or why they should be nice back. Sad but simple fact is that the Arabs thought they could win with numbers. They were out fought and out thought! They forgot the very simple fact, don't bring a knife to a gun fight!

TheRealFingers99 said:

I don't really care what you think of me -- in my opinion you died as a human being many, many years ago. If you can regain your humanity, I'll listen.

Good and here is a news flash for you: This "hate filled, spiteful little Corporal" really couldn't give a toss what you think of me. You are a small minded and pitiful anti-Semite and I would feel sorry for you if it wasn't for the fact that you kind of rhetoric get people killed!

TheRealFingers99 said:

Fortunately for Israel, your views are too right wing to be taken seriously by the majority of Israelis. Fortunately for Israelis, they're too right wing to be taken seriously by Jews. You reveal yourself for what you are -- a Zionist so besotted with the object of his affections that he'd sooner see her die than talk to another.

Something tells me that Israel isn't going to die and you reference to it would further indicate your true colours and background Habibi.

TheRealFingers99 said:

Incidentally, you've still not answered my point regarding the status of non Jewish Israelis. Will you and your cohort campaign for equality for them, or do you want them banished to complete the ethnic cleansing?

If you live within the confines of the law of a nation then no problem. Equal rights for all. If however you reject the law and all civilised behaviour then don't bh and moan when big bad Israel drops a bomb on your head!

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Come on. There were a handful of Jews living in Palestine. There was then the "invasion" (OK, probably not the correct term) under the influence of the primitive nationalist doctrine of Zionism.

The stuff you prattle out about the war and Israel's right to the land as a result (a pretty barbaric concept by any 20C standards, BWTH) leaves out:

• the Zionist rejection of a one state solution
• Plan Dalet and its implementation -- the ethnic cleansing of Palestine: murder, rape, torture, germ warfare (the bride is married -- let's arrange the divorce)
• the Zionist land grab, which occurred prior to the end of the British Mandate
• the creation of a sham democracy in which not all Israeli citizens are considered equal
• a brutal, oppressive occupying power

• You missed the bit where the Arabs rejected the two state plan, (conveniently).
• You missed the bit where the Arabs did the same but I guess that's fine for them to do it.
• You missed the bit where the Arabs publically state they would slaughter all the Jews. And your surprised when they grab land as a defensive buffer?
• Creation of a democracy by the UN, that's the UN! But hey, lets blame that on the Jews as well!
• Many brutal and oppressive neighbouring powers that repeatedly attack you. Really fail to see hope or why they should be nice back. Sad but simple fact is that the Arabs thought they could win with numbers. They were out fought and out thought! They forgot the very simple fact, don't bring a knife to a gun fight!

Hang on a cotton picking moment -- the first 3 points I mention happened before any of the ones you mention! And, furthermore, as we've seen, poor little Israel had superiority (at the beginning, for sure, only because they did a secret deal with the Arab Legion). For God's sake man, Israel is a nuclear super power. Does it really have a lot to fear? And the buffer -- is it going to be Grad range, ICBM range, or what? It's a soft, silly, stupid excuse for an idea (or a land grab).

Grumfutock said:

........ I would feel sorry for you if it wasn't for the fact that you kind of rhetoric get people killed!

On the contrary -- I've suggested peace. Your rhetoric (were any fool to take it seriously) is that which promotes, and promoted, war.

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Fortunately for Israel, your views are too right wing to be taken seriously by the majority of Israelis. Fortunately for Israelis, they're too right wing to be taken seriously by Jews. You reveal yourself for what you are -- a Zionist so besotted with the object of his affections that he'd sooner see her die than talk to another.

Grumfutock said:

Something tells me that Israel isn't going to die and you reference to it would further indicate your true colours and background Habibi.

As I've suggested throughout, this conflict will not be resolved by military means. It will die because fools like you refuse to concede anything. However, the Zionist chumps made one huge miscalculation -- they chose to occupy a land with very few natural resources.

Israel is an importer of oil and grain (amongst other things). It's unlikely, given the present situation, that the gas fields will ever be exploited: it would just be unsafe. The economy is close to free fall, and the Orthodoxy will neither serve in the army or use birth control. Long term, it's fluked. What are they going to do, try and grab Lebanon again for Lebensraum? Invade Syria?

Grumfutock said:

TheRealFingers99 said:

Incidentally, you've still not answered my point regarding the status of non Jewish Israelis. Will you and your cohort campaign for equality for them, or do you want them banished to complete the ethnic cleansing?

Grumfutock said:

If you live within the confines of the law of a nation then no problem. Equal rights for all. If however you reject the law and all civilised behaviour then don't bh and moan when big bad Israel drops a bomb on your head!

So Israel is going to bomb it's own citizens? Do you understand the demographics of Israel?

If you do, then I expect you to campaign for equal rights (and equal justice) for non Jewish Israeli citizens (we're not talking here of Palestinians). Let's see an appeal by you for Druze refuseniks to receive the same sentences as Israeli ones. Just for starters.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 22 November 16:44

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

But repeating that Israel is a brutal terrorist state is OK?

"On the other hand, it[the IDF]'s a brutal occupation force, similar to the Germans in World War ll. Similar, not identical. And I'm not talking about their behaviour toward the Jews. That was exceptional, with its own particular characteristics. I mean how they acted to the Poles, the Belgians, the Dutch...To all of them... The Czechs. It's a very negative trait that we acquired,to be... I'm afraid to say it, so I won't. We've become cruel,to ourselves as well,but mainly to the occupied population, using the excuse of the war against terror." (Avraham Shalom)

Grumfutock said:

You appear to use the same double standard system of logic as Hamas, are you a member?

And Shalom was a Hamas agent! Oy veh!

And Shalom

[Grumfutock]

Yawn, You are going round in circles mate!

Israel run the area, accept it and move on. The Arabs should of done a deal when they could but they choose to gamble and go for everything. They lost that gamble, so they went and got some mate to join in and it turns out they lost that gamble as well. Now just suck it up and move on.

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Yawn, You are going round in circles mate!

Israel run the area, accept it and move on. The Arabs should of done a deal when they could but they choose to gamble and go for everything. They lost that gamble, so they went and got some mate to join in and it turns out they lost that gamble as well. Now just suck it up and move on.

Just trying to bring you down to earth. The Zionists should have done the deal for the one state solution way back, but they thought they could take it all, build a Jewish state, push the people who were already there into the sea.

Make a viable settlement or face economic and political oblivion. Simples.

So, are you going to campaign for parity for Druze refuseniks, or do you see them as beasts with legs?

[Mermaid]

Grumfutock said:

Israel run the area, accept it and move on. The Arabs should of done a deal when they could but they choose to gamble and go for everything. They lost that gamble, so they went and got some mate to join in and it turns out they lost that gamble as well. Now just suck it up and move on.

THEY will not move on, and bh forever and rapidly go backwards whilst everyone else is going fast forward.

They need pragmatic leaders, the sympathisers here no doubt do a lot to help the Palestinians, or do they?

My view is the Palestinians are on their own, and are not in a good bargaining position - salvage the best you can and move on and participate in the bigger cake you have not helped to bake.

[Grumfutock]

Mermaid said:

THEY will not move on, and bh forever and rapidly go backwards whilst everyone else is going fast forward.

They need pragmatic leaders, the sympathisers here no doubt do a lot to help the Palestinians, or do they?

My view is the Palestinians are on their own, and are not in a good bargaining position - salvage the best you can and move on and participate in the bigger cake you have not helped to bake.

And that is the problem. The Palestinians were conned into fighting whilst the rest of the Arab world made peace. They are now paying the penalty of that same Arab world abandoning them after their own attacks failed.

They still get encouraged and funded by nutters like Qatar and Iran but I agree that they should just move on. I also agree that they wont. I don't agree that the sympathisers here do any good. The more that the Palestinians are encouraged to believe that the world will support them the more they will fight. The world is never going to turn it's back on Israel so they are falling for the same con again.

[TheRealFingers99]

The world doesn't need to turn on Israel, exactly, just to bring it to reality. Simple EU sanctions will do just fine. Sanctions are backed by many of the Israeli left.

I don't see the Palestinian thing as being about expecting support (although they get moral support from all over, including Israelis).

It's a view of fate -- the Roma call it baxt, the Kurds something else, not just an Arab thing -- combined with a decidedly non-European view of martyrdom and pride. The Kurds explain it rather well, but it would take me forever to drag out the reference.

More simply put, if all you have to loose is your life, and your life is pretty miserable, and you gain pride and respect by dying, then martyrdom is a good thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with heaven, virgins, fresh dates, and all that.

The Roma turn it on its head: "bury me standing: I've lived all my life on my knees".

So, Grum, we can expect you to campaign for parity for Druze Israeli refuseniks?

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 22 November 18:05

[Grumfutock]

What part of equal rights for those that obey the law didn't you understand?

Please clarify because that in itself would appear to be a really straight forward statement but you seem to be struggling with it.

[Mermaid]

"Bury me standing etc heroics"

Rather primitive "thinking", if at all you can call it that. Get smart, then you may have a chance to get even ( and you will not need to at that stage).

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

But repeating that Israel is a brutal terrorist state is OK?

Absolutely. Unlike you I don't think I've dispalyed double standards. Now, do you condemn Israel's killing of innocent Palestinian civilians, or continue to excuse it with mealy-mouthed weasel words?

Grumfutock said:

You appear to use the same double standard system of logic as Hamas, are you a member?

Nope. As I've said repeatedly I condemn Hamas as well. Now, any chance of you condemning any of Israel's actions? Any at all? Just one....?

Grumfutock said:

And one small point, Hamas haven't recognised Israel's right to exist now have they? More typical propaganda and spin. Yes the PLO have ALLEGEDLY changed their charter, nobody really knows for sure, but Hamas have not. Seeing as how Hamas run half of the territory I would put it to you that Israel is very much still denied it's right to exist!

Of course it's "alleged" - unless they personally prove it to you and every other it's always going to be "alleged" i think. because that's a handy way of avoiding having to enter serious peace discussions. To clarify for your benefit, Fatah have recognized Israel's right to exist. They recognised it as far back as 1988. I get the impression that it's a handy little slur, an easy accusation to be used to further the pretence that it's "the Palestinians that don't want peace" and Israel is being forced to demolish homes, evict Palestinians and annexe land.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

What part of equal rights for those that obey the law didn't you understand?

Would that be the law that also says Settlement building is illegal?