Discussion
Countdown said:
Jesus wept.
When I stop beating my head against the keyboard I might just join him.Grumfutock said:
Your average Arab will do EXACTLY what the Imam tells him to do and think. Do you really think that it would end well? To believe that the Arabs gaining control of Israel and it ending peacefully is incredibly naïve, gullible and blind. Sorry.
And yet, Jews, Muslim Arabs, Druze and Palestinian Christians lived side by side in relative peace for centuries. I can find no more evidence that the average Arab will do just as the Imam tells him/her than I can for the average Jew doing just what the Rabbi says. And I find no evidence that the average Imam is a warmongering Islamofascist. Indeed, quite the reverse.This is, to my mind, just the kind of crazy Islamophobia that Bibi has tried to whip up. The enemy is some sort of united front between Hamas and Hezbollah, Iran and Saudi, Al-Q and ISIS. But, of course, the average Muslim has no allegiance with any of them, nor has the average Palestinian outside of the oppression.
Are the Yazidi Kurds? Depends really, whether you listen to the Turks or the PKK! But the folk doing the rescue were from the most ethnically mixed of the Rojava cantons -- Jezeera -- and would have included Syriacs (non Kurds), Arabs (non Kurds) and possibly Turkumen and Chechens.
TheRealFingers99 said:
Countdown said:
Jesus wept.
When I stop beating my head against the keyboard I might just join him.Grumfutock said:
Your average Arab will do EXACTLY what the Imam tells him to do and think. Do you really think that it would end well? To believe that the Arabs gaining control of Israel and it ending peacefully is incredibly naïve, gullible and blind. Sorry.
And yet, Jews, Muslim Arabs, Druze and Palestinian Christians lived side by side in relative peace for centuries. I can find no more evidence that the average Arab will do just as the Imam tells him/her than I can for the average Jew doing just what the Rabbi says. And I find no evidence that the average Imam is a warmongering Islamofascist. Indeed, quite the reverse.This is, to my mind, just the kind of crazy Islamophobia that Bibi has tried to whip up. The enemy is some sort of united front between Hamas and Hezbollah, Iran and Saudi, Al-Q and ISIS. But, of course, the average Muslim has no allegiance with any of them, nor has the average Palestinian outside of the oppression.
Are the Yazidi Kurds? Depends really, whether you listen to the Turks or the PKK! But the folk doing the rescue were from the most ethnically mixed of the Rojava cantons -- Jezeera -- and would have included Syriacs (non Kurds), Arabs (non Kurds) and possibly Turkumen and Chechens.
Regarding living in peace for centuries. Yes they did and how did that work out for the Jew? Rather badly wouldn't you say, hence the troubles of the last 70 years!
No matter what, Israel will never sign off on an equal 1 state solution that makes it viable or possible for the non Jews to gain ascendancy. Plain and simple fact! You can argue all you want about the rights, wrongs or ill's of this action but it wont change a damn thing over there!
Grumfutock said:
I would suggest the people to ask are the Kurds and the Yazidi. Turks have nothing to do with it.
Regarding living in peace for centuries. Yes they did and how did that work out for the Jew? Rather badly wouldn't you say, hence the troubles of the last 70 years!
No matter what, Israel will never sign off on an equal 1 state solution that makes it viable or possible for the non Jews to gain ascendancy. Plain and simple fact! You can argue all you want about the rights, wrongs or ill's of this action but it wont change a damn thing over there!
If I was going to ask anyone, I'd ask the ethnologists! DNA doesn't lie or have illusions.Regarding living in peace for centuries. Yes they did and how did that work out for the Jew? Rather badly wouldn't you say, hence the troubles of the last 70 years!
No matter what, Israel will never sign off on an equal 1 state solution that makes it viable or possible for the non Jews to gain ascendancy. Plain and simple fact! You can argue all you want about the rights, wrongs or ill's of this action but it wont change a damn thing over there!
I think it worked out rather well for the Jews (in Israel), all things considered. Only the huge influx of Jews under Zionism and the end of the mandate caused serious issues.
The fact of the matter, as you state it, then, is that Israel is a racist state (or a state which wishes to be a racist state). The last one of those didn't turn out very well, did it?
In the strange world of denial the Israeli leadership live in, that may seem OK. But it'll take nothing more than EU sanctions to cripple the economy and leave Israel dependent upon food parcels from the USA.
The fig leaf of the 2 state solution has been cast off -- we can all see Israel's naughty bits.
Slaav said:
Grumfutock said:
If you all could put down your burning hatred of Israel for 30 seconds you might just see what they are trying to do.
You have all waxed lyrical about a 2 state or a one state solution. OK then, let us look at that honestly.
1. A 2 state answer would involve Israel giving up land that it has, rightly or wrongly, fought and spilt blood for. That land is also, in parts, occupied by settlers, so to give that land up and remove those settlers is going to make any government rather unpopular. Just look at what happened to Rabin.
2. A one state, with equal rights and votes for all, is never going to happen in a million years for one simple, plain fact. No Israeli government is going to put the country in a position where the majority could end up as non Jew. Like it or not, that is never going to happen!
Now I don't have all the answers but I do know that both of the above are truths that are inescapable.
You may now continue in your normal anti Israeli bashing rhetoric.
Taking option 1 in isolation, the withdrawal from illegal settlements and returning these lands and, in some cases returning homes to their previous 'owners' will be incredibly unpalatable to most right wing politicians in Usrael. They are more preoccupied with staying in power than making peace.You have all waxed lyrical about a 2 state or a one state solution. OK then, let us look at that honestly.
1. A 2 state answer would involve Israel giving up land that it has, rightly or wrongly, fought and spilt blood for. That land is also, in parts, occupied by settlers, so to give that land up and remove those settlers is going to make any government rather unpopular. Just look at what happened to Rabin.
2. A one state, with equal rights and votes for all, is never going to happen in a million years for one simple, plain fact. No Israeli government is going to put the country in a position where the majority could end up as non Jew. Like it or not, that is never going to happen!
Now I don't have all the answers but I do know that both of the above are truths that are inescapable.
You may now continue in your normal anti Israeli bashing rhetoric.
Working on the premise that I agree with you on point or option 1, do you agree with me that further expansionist policies, further land grab and the building of illegal settlements is plain wrong? Should be stopped? Or at the very worst, ensures that the anger and hatred of the Israelis by the Palestinians and other Arabs continues ?
Again assuming we agree on point 1, and again assuming that Israel won't ever withdraw from these settlements (I happen to think that they are going to have to at some point - well at least from some of them) then they should STOP further expansion as all it does us guarantee there will NEVER be peace?
A couple of simple questions in there.... And yes, I know that there are many terrorists who won't ever give up on the Pali side! I do not support them by the way.
Slaav
As I have repeatedly said, I make no judgement on the rights or wrongs of any of it. I try to put the 'other sides' point of view, that is all.
The Israeli's can never and will never accept a 1 state solution with equal rights and votes for all unless they out number everyone else by a very large margin. Simple fact.
A 2 state solution is most likely the right answer but look what happened the last time they tried that route. Rabin murdered, troops withdrawn only to be for the 2nd Intifada to occur and the PLO replaced by Hamas. I would be very surprised if they went down this route quickly again.
I hope that addressed your questions.
As I have repeatedly said, I make no judgement on the rights or wrongs of any of it. I try to put the 'other sides' point of view, that is all.
The Israeli's can never and will never accept a 1 state solution with equal rights and votes for all unless they out number everyone else by a very large margin. Simple fact.
A 2 state solution is most likely the right answer but look what happened the last time they tried that route. Rabin murdered, troops withdrawn only to be for the 2nd Intifada to occur and the PLO replaced by Hamas. I would be very surprised if they went down this route quickly again.
I hope that addressed your questions.
And, as -- sort of -- evidence, some Zionist extremist posted pics of opponents of the Jewish State Law in Nazi uniforms:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Aharonovich-calls...
Obviously didn't see my post remarking that the last state founded on racial lines met a bad end!
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Aharonovich-calls...
Obviously didn't see my post remarking that the last state founded on racial lines met a bad end!
TheRealFingers99 said:
And, as -- sort of -- evidence, some Zionist extremist posted pics of opponents of the Jewish State Law in Nazi uniforms:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Aharonovich-calls...
Obviously didn't see my post remarking that the last state founded on racial lines met a bad end!
I just love the way the poster is a "Zionist extremist" in your eyes. They don't know who the poster is!http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Aharonovich-calls...
Obviously didn't see my post remarking that the last state founded on racial lines met a bad end!
Grumfutock said:
I just love the way the poster is a "Zionist extremist" in your eyes. They don't know who the poster is!
Well, heval:a. The article -- and my Hewbrew isn't up to finding or reading the original source -- states that. Presumably there's text alongside the pics.
b. If it was an anti Zionist, you'd expect to see the supporters of the bill caricatured as Nazis, would you not?
Remember that the extreme Zionists caricatured Rabin as a Nazi prior to his assassination.
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
History is written by the victors.
Not any more. Even Israeli military censorship can't screw up t'Interweb. “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
I just love the way the poster is a "Zionist extremist" in your eyes. They don't know who the poster is!
Well, heval:a. The article -- and my Hewbrew isn't up to finding or reading the original source -- states that. Presumably there's text alongside the pics.
b. If it was an anti Zionist, you'd expect to see the supporters of the bill caricatured as Nazis, would you not?
Remember that the extreme Zionists caricatured Rabin as a Nazi prior to his assassination.
a. Maybe he is a nationalist, not necessarily the same as a Zionist.
b. Maybe it is propaganda set up by others to make the nationalists look bad. Ultimately until the poster is identified then we really have no idea do we.
Remember the Nazis blamed the Poles for the Gleiwitz incident prior to invasion.
necessary
Grumfutock said:
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
I just love the way the poster is a "Zionist extremist" in your eyes. They don't know who the poster is!
Well, heval:a. The article -- and my Hewbrew isn't up to finding or reading the original source -- states that. Presumably there's text alongside the pics.
b. If it was an anti Zionist, you'd expect to see the supporters of the bill caricatured as Nazis, would you not?
Remember that the extreme Zionists caricatured Rabin as a Nazi prior to his assassination.
a. Maybe he is a nationalist, not necessarily the same as a Zionist.
b. Maybe it is propaganda set up by others to make the nationalists look bad. Ultimately until the poster is identified then we really have no idea do we.
Remember the Nazis blamed the Poles for the Gleiwitz incident prior to invasion.
necessary
Mermaid said:
20 years from now, 50 years from now what will Israel look like?
I don't know. Pessimistically it'll look a little like this (but with more concrete):
(Hang on, Gaza looks a little like that now.)Optimistically:
Actually the Bekaa valley (no imperialist landgrab intended!) but you get the idea. On the minus side, I see a sub nuclear war zone, where you can barely breathe without retching due to the stink of rotting flesh.
On the positive side, a land of milk and honey, managed by confederations of Jews, Arabs and Druze, with cheerful, peaceful, co-operative and optimistic relationships with their neighbours.
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Sunday 30th November 22:17
TheRealFingers99 said:
On the positive side, a land of milk and honey, managed by confederations of Jews, Arabs and Kurds, with cheerful, peaceful, co-operative and optimistic relationships with their neighbours.
That sounds a plan. No fear, confidence & then share. Easy, for all the hot air that is being spouted achieves nothing.You convince your mates, and I will convince mine.
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