Israeli

[Grumfutock]

SR7492 said:

You do come out with utter horse st, don't you?

So if I went into your house and occupied your garden as my home, you'd be ok with it?

Stealing is stealing . . . . But this isn't something that is happening, isn't Grum.

Thanks for that. Try asking the settlers how they felt about it. I don't think they set up home in anyone's garden now did they. How did the settler steal it? If the government told you it was fine then you would to, no let me guess, being the self important and pious person you are I guess you wouldn't. By your logic then this was fine as well after all if they hadn't been there they couldn't of been attacked!

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/1...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/1...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/1...

The fact remains they were told "go build your house there" and now they are being told to pull them down.

But thanks for your input.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Thanks for that. Try asking the settlers how they felt about it. I don't think they set up home in anyone's garden now did they. How did the settler steal it? If the government told you it was fine then you would to, no let me guess, being the self important and pious person you are I guess you wouldn't. By your logic then this was fine as well after all if they hadn't been there they couldn't of been attacked!


The fact remains they were told "go build your house there" and now they are being told to pull them down.

But thanks for your input.

Your logic is incredible.

It isn't the Israeli Govt. telling the Settlers, it's the Settlers telling the Govt. The Settlers believe that God has promised them "Greater Israel". They want total control of the West Bank (and the real hardcore want bits of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia).

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/future

The current Israeli Govt relies heavily on the Settler vote and, as such, has put in place policies which make it more attractive for Jewish people to colonise the West Bank.

http://www.btselem.org/settlements/migration

So, a Government you don't recognise, and aren't actually able to vote for,occupies your country and makes a law that somebody can occupy your house. And if you attack them, you're the terrorist. Does that seem fair to you?

You ask "how did they steal it"? There are countless examples of Palestinian farmers having been evicted from their own land to make way for Settlements. Even leaving that aside, it would be like the Russians or the Chinese deciding to set up a settlement in the local park on the grounds that "it doesn't belong to anybody", It's perverse at best.

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Your logic is incredible.

It isn't the Israeli Govt. telling the Settlers, it's the Settlers telling the Govt. The Settlers believe that God has promised them "Greater Israel". They want total control of the West Bank (and the real hardcore want bits of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia).

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/eretz/future

The current Israeli Govt relies heavily on the Settler vote and, as such, has put in place policies which make it more attractive for Jewish people to colonise the West Bank.

http://www.btselem.org/settlements/migration

So, a Government you don't recognise, and aren't actually able to vote for,occupies your country and makes a law that somebody can occupy your house. And if you attack them, you're the terrorist. Does that seem fair to you?

You ask "how did they steal it"? There are countless examples of Palestinian farmers having been evicted from their own land to make way for Settlements. Even leaving that aside, it would be like the Russians or the Chinese deciding to set up a settlement in the local park on the grounds that "it doesn't belong to anybody", It's perverse at best.

And your ignorance and ability to jump on the 'lets be PC' bandwagon is staggering!

Since December 2007, approval by both the Israeli Prime Minister and Israeli Defence Minister of all settlement activities (including planning) in the West Bank is required. So that will be the GOVERNMENT then!

1st paragraph of fingers link actually states: "Israeli Supreme Court President Asher Grunis ordered the government Thursday to evacuate Amona, the largest outpost in the West Bank and the center of drawn-out legal battles, within two years." Note: Not the settlers but the GOVERNMENT!

Examples of Palestinian farmers being evicted? Strange as Israeli law states that privately owned land can not be part of a settlement. So how do these farmers get evicted then pray tell?

But hey, lets not let reality and facts get in the way of a good Israeli bashing news story!!!

Edited by Grumfutock on Friday 26th December 15:24

Edited by Grumfutock on Friday 26th December 15:25

[TheRealFingers99]

Justice is justice. The law is so tweaked in favour of Israelis that it's quite a remarkable decision. Expect Berlusconiesque attack on judiciary from Bibi very soon.

I daresay the settlers will receive huge compensation and go and encroach elsewhere in the Occupied Territories. But Chelsea are top of the league, YPG are kicking the carp out of Daesh, I'll take it as a positive sign.

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 26th December 15:35

Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Saturday 27th December 09:05

[TheRealFingers99]

Grumfutock said:

Examples of Palestinian farmers being evicted? Strange as Israeli law states that privately owned land can not be part of a settlement. So how do these farmers get evicted then pray tell?

See the Nakba!

But the shooting and terror campaigns against Palestinian farmers (largely by settlers), the arson and grubbing up of olive plantations, are a commonplace.

[Grumfutock]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Justice is justice. The law is so tweaked in favour of Israelis that it's quite a remarkable decision. Expect Burlusconiesque attack on judiciary from Bibi very soon.

I daresay the settlers will receive huge compensation and go and encroach elsewhere in the Occupied Territories. But Chelsea are top of the league, YPG are kicking the carp out of Daesh, I'll take it as a positive sign.

And I am not disputing any of that. All I am saying is that the settlers were told to go there and now they are being told to move. No discussion on the rights or wrong, just a simple statement of fact that this wasn't good news for the settlers who ha done what their Government had told them to do.

More importantly Bournemouth are top of the Championship!

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

And your ignorance and ability to jump on the 'lets be PC' bandwagon is staggering!

Grumfutock said:

Since December 2007, approval by both the Israeli Prime Minister and Israeli Defence Minister of all settlement activities (including planning) in the West Bank is required. So that will be the GOVERNMENT then!

I'll try again. The Israeli Govt (like any other deomcratic Govt) makes laws based on the will of the people who vote for it. The current Israeli Govt is in Coalition with openly Zionist parties which support Settlement expansion. And just because the Government says "it's ok" doesnt actually mean it's OK. By your logic Assad is legally entitled to bomb his opponents, and what Saddam was doing was also OK because there were THE GOVERNMENT.

Grumfutock said:

1st paragraph of fingers link actually states: "Israeli Supreme Court President Asher Grunis ordered the government Thursday to evacuate Amona, the largest outpost in the West Bank and the center of drawn-out legal battles, within two years." Note: Not the settlers but the GOVERNMENT!

Your understanding of governance seems limited. The GOVERNMENT aren't the Supreme Court. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ENTITIES. That aside there have been numerous orders made by the Israeli legal system and they are generally ignored. This might come as a surprise to you but Settlement building continues unabated in the West Bank

Grumfutock said:

Examples of Palestinian farmers being evicted? Strange as Israeli law states that privately owned land can not be part of a settlement. So how do these farmers get evicted then pray tell?

By the army, usually.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-300600688.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/israel-ev...
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/02/israel-stop-thr...

Grumfutock said:

But hey, lets not let reality and facts get in the way of a good Israeli bashing news story!!!

Given how comprehensive Google is, I'm genuinely surprised at how weak your arguments are.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

And I am not disputing any of that. All I am saying is that the settlers were told to go there and now they are being told to move. No discussion on the rights or wrong, just a simple statement of fact that this wasn't good news for the settlers who ha done what their Government had told them to do.

They weren't told to go there. They WANTED to go there. Because they think the land was promised to them by G-d. And that is why it's so hard for the Israeli Government to get them to leave.

This is a basic fundamental reason why the conflict has lasted for so long. You really do need to understand this.

[Grumfutock]

Countdown, do you even read the post before you reply?

Quite staggering.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Countdown, do you even read the post before you reply?

Quite staggering.

feel free to quote the bits you think I haven't read.

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

feel free to quote the bits you think I haven't read.

Love to:

Countdown said:

The Israeli Govt (like any other deomcratic Govt) makes laws based on the will of the people who vote for it.

Utter rubbish. Since when did any government give a crap about the people once elected? During an election possibly but certainly not after it! Poll tax and student loans are just 2 examples of this.
When was the last time our government ask you your opinion on a law they were passing? Surely that is the whole bloody point of having a government!

Countdown said:

The GOVERNMENT aren't the Supreme Court. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ENTITIES.

Where did I state that it was the same? What I said was "1st paragraph of fingers link actually states: "Israeli Supreme Court President Asher Grunis ordered the government Thursday to evacuate Amona, the largest outpost in the West Bank and the center of drawn-out legal battles, within two years." Note: Not the settlers but the GOVERNMENT!" Fairly sure that doesn't say they are the same thing, rather the opposite.

Countdown said:

By the army, usually.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-300600688.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/israel-ev...
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/02/israel-stop-thr...

For security reasons, not to settle. Did you even bother to read your own links? This may of followed but we are talking about settlers just stealing private land aren't we!

As I have stated it is Israeli law that privately owned land can not be part of a settlement which is why this judgement has been issued.

Try not to let your combativeness and dislike of me cloud your ability to comprehend facts and reality.

[Countdown]

Grumfutock said:

Countdown said:

feel free to quote the bits you think I haven't read.

Love to:

Countdown said:

The Israeli Govt (like any other deomcratic Govt) makes laws based on the will of the people who vote for it.

Yes. That's right. that confirms I've not read what you posted. Just by quoting two sections you provided incontrovertible proof that I haven't read your posts

Grumfutock said:

Utter rubbish. Since when did any government give a crap about the people once elected? During an election possibly but certainly not after it! Poll tax and student loans are just 2 examples of this.

Two excellent examples but perhaps not for the reason you intended. The poll tax doesn't exist anymore - why do you think that is? Student loans do exist - why do you think that is? Let me help you out - in BOTH cases the Govt worked out how many votes it would win or lose by adopting those policies.

Grumfutock said:

When was the last time our government ask you your opinion on a law they were passing? Surely that is the whole bloody point of having a government!

Do you know what a manifesto is? Do you know how those things are prepared? Do you know that all political parties have research teams that monitor public opinion and adapt their policies accordingly?

Grumfutock said:

For security reasons, not to settle. Did you even bother to read your own links? This may of followed but we are talking about settlers just stealing private land aren't we!

So do you actually agree that Palestinians have been evicted from their lands for "security reasons"? Talk about "ostrich in sand" approach - much of the so-called security apparatus is only needed to protect the Settlements. It causes massive difficulties and further resentment/conflict but let's ignore all that and pretend the Settlers are only building settlements because the Government told them to.

[Grumfutock]

1. Governments do not make laws based on the will of the people, FACT. Once in power they only care about the "will of the people" when election year rolls round! FACT!!

2. Manifesto? Yes that's the document that every party elected ALWAYS sticks to isn't it!!! Ridiculous comment! Lib Dems/Student loans again. FACT!

If you cant see that then there is no point talking any further! Again don't let your natural argumentative streak blind you to facts and reality!

[zuby84]

Grumfutock said:

Thanks for that. Try asking the settlers how they felt about it. I don't think they set up home in anyone's garden now did they. How did the settler steal it? If the government told you it was fine then you would to, no let me guess, being the self important and pious person you are I guess you wouldn't. By your logic then this was fine as well after all if they hadn't been there they couldn't of been attacked!

This comment sums up everything that is wrong with Grum. This is why Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution. Could you have used this "argument" if Palestine was a country? You feel more empathy for Israeli settlers whom have settled in Palestinian land (expelling the Palestinians in the process) than the Palestinians themselves who have been driven out and their rights restricted.

Still waiting for an answer over the last 50 pages Grum - would you happily give your house and garden over to a bunch of Pagans as their kind once lives on your patch of land before you did?

On an aside - I always find the internet a funny thing. In real life - would someone really give someone like Grum the time of day? It's like what I imagine arguing with a AQ terrorist apologist would be like.

[Grumfutock]

zuby84 said:

This comment sums up everything that is wrong with Grum. This is why Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution. Could you have used this "argument" if Palestine was a country? You feel more empathy for Israeli settlers whom have settled in Palestinian land (expelling the Palestinians in the process) than the Palestinians themselves who have been driven out and their rights restricted.

And this sums up everything that is wrong with you, you don't read posts! Now go back and read the last two pages for clarity of mind and context of the discussion.

1. Palestine isn't a country is it! No, so what's the point in ifs?
2. I wasn't feeling any empathy to anyone, I pointed out that the settlers had now lost their homes!
3. Who was expelled? Again read the posts. These weren't occupied houses it was farm land FFS!
4. How the hell have they been driven out? Do you even know where Amona is?

zuby84 said:

Still waiting for an answer over the last 50 pages Grum - would you happily give your house and garden over to a bunch of Pagans as their kind once lives on your patch of land before you did?

Once again, what house? What garden? Why do you struggle with this? Oh and those pagans are Jews mate! That comment really does show your frame of mind and why I tend to ignore your more idiotic outbursts for 50 pages!

zuby84 said:

On an aside - I always find the internet a funny thing. In real life - would someone really give someone like Grum the time of day? It's like what I imagine arguing with a AQ terrorist apologist would be like.

You may have a point there, in real life you would be the pubs racist bore that everyone ignored and laughed at until somebody just threw them out for being just that to much of a penis.

Edited by Grumfutock on Friday 26th December 19:51

[zuby84]

Grumfutock said:

Wasn't good news for the people that settled there though. Swings and roundabouts mate.

You're not as smart as you think you are mate. Once again your argument and outbursts rest on what you think are technicalities (when they are in fact false technicalities.) Now you might not have learnt this at school or in your professional life, but what you described above is called "empathy." Granted it's not something "Oh I feel so so sorry for them - I wish it was me and not them dying?!??" [which is also empathy] but it is empathy nonetheless.

Definition of empathy from Google: Empathy is the experience of understanding another person's condition from their perspective. You place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling.

Contrary to what you may think, I do have some empathy for you. You should try and better yourself and stop being so bitter.

Oh and Pagans - another technicality you try and wriggle out and just take a minor point someone has made and start screaming and shouting that Pagans didn't exist in the UK before Judaism. Didn't you learn anything about Stonehenge? The geezers that built them; that's what I mean by pagans - but you'll just be awkward for the sake of it. You know the concept I'm trying to get across - why don't you pull me up for my punctuation next?

Now people reading this will think I'm crazy for going on about pagans so much, but let's put it this way - you're not let's say in the top 50% in terms of intelligence in this country - people really have to spell things out for you. You find it very very difficult to understand the notion of context.

[Mermaid]

Since you are the smart one, tell me something: Are you anti Israel or pro Muslims wherever you find them regardless of the issue?

[zuby84]

Grumfutock said:

1. Palestine isn't a country is it! No, so what's the point in ifs?
2. I wasn't feeling any empathy to anyone, I pointed out that the settlers had now lost their homes!
3. Who was expelled? Again read the posts. These weren't occupied houses it was farm land FFS!
4. How the hell have they been driven out? Do you even know where Amona is?

1. Stupid point. You have no idea how debate works.
2. Like I said - you did (not a bad thing) but just proves that you disagree with anything for the sake of it
3. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem like someone who is anti-immigration. You would be ok if the UK government promised and gave large amounts of unoccupied farmland to Muslims across the World to come and live on it? If you would; then please accept my apologies on this point. If you would not, then clearly your own premise doesn't stack up
4. See 3 above

[zuby84]

Mermaid said:

Since you are the smart one, tell me something: Are you anti Israel or pro Muslims wherever you find them regardless of the issue?

I'm not anti-Israeli. I have empathy for the Israeli's - I really do. One can only imagine their desire or need to have their own homeland after what they went through just 70 years ago or so just to ensure that history doesn't repeat itself. I think we would all do/want the same. However, IMO the way they are going about it is all wrong and in the long run I think it's going to be self-defeating. They cannot correct a wrong that happened to their own people by wronging someone else. Granted, what they are doing to the Palestinians is nowhere near the scale of what happened to the Jews in WW2, but the principle is the same.

As an aside, I can pretty much guarantee that the Israeli-Palestinian situation is one of the main underlying factors that gets Jihadi's so riled up and wanting to "attack the West." Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to win the fight against Islamic extremism and terrorism without sorting out this conflict first.

I am not automatically pro-Muslim (even though you may think anyone who stands up against racism and Islamophobic content which is all too prevalent on these boards is.) There are 1bn + Muslims in the World - now it would take quite a narrow minded idiot to tar them all with the same brush would it not?

Edited by zuby84 on Friday 26th December 21:29

[Mermaid]

zuby84 said:

As an aside, I can pretty much guarantee that the Israeli-Palestinian situation is one of the main underlying factors that gets Jihadi's so riled up and wanting to "attack the West." Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to win the fight against Islamic extremism and terrorism without sorting out this conflict first.

It is naive to believe that even if that situation is sorted, and I am confident it will be, the genie will go back in the bottle. The two issues are separate.