Discussion
Countdown said:
audidoody said:
Imagine that. A country which is claiming an inalienable right to exist. Who would have thunk it?
Becomes a tad hypocritical when they deny others the same right, don't you think?TheRealFingers99 said:
De facto they've done it to Palestine for 60 odd years. Incidentally, that's how long Gaza has been under air attack by Israel......
Ah so de facto rather than actual as opposed to the Palestinian version that is enshrined in their charter.And incidentally, how long have the PLO, Syria, Hamas and all the other assorted historical aggressor in the region been bombing, attacking and invading Israel?
Why do you insist on trying to portray Israel as the sole aggressor in this problem. With statements like that it is almost as if the Arabs can and have done no wrong in your opinion.
Very strange!
With the possible exception of the Arab rebellion, the resistance of the Arabs has been to Israeli aggression.
While that resistance has often been muddle headed and cruel, allow me to point out that the Zionists and Israel have employed rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Were these acts to be perpetrated by Muslims how would the West behave?
I am Charlie
While that resistance has often been muddle headed and cruel, allow me to point out that the Zionists and Israel have employed rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Were these acts to be perpetrated by Muslims how would the West behave?
I am Charlie
TheRealFingers99 said:
With the possible exception of the Arab rebellion, the resistance of the Arabs has been to Israeli aggression.
While that resistance has often been muddle headed and cruel, allow me to point out that the Zionists and Israel have employed rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Were these acts to be perpetrated by Muslims how would the West behave?
I am Charlie
Were? WERE????? What the hell do you mean were??? While that resistance has often been muddle headed and cruel, allow me to point out that the Zionists and Israel have employed rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Were these acts to be perpetrated by Muslims how would the West behave?
I am Charlie
And as for the resistance of the Arabs being a response to Israeli aggression? So the Arabs weren't being aggressive when the armies of 4 Arab countries declared war on Israel, 15th May 1948, 24 hours after Israel came into existence! Everything spins from that day.
Grumfutock said:
And as for the resistance of the Arabs being a response to Israeli aggression? So the Arabs weren't being aggressive when the armies of 4 Arab countries declared war on Israel, 15th May 1948, 24 hours after Israel came into existence! Everything spins from that day.
You keep on with that pathetic little lie. The campaign of terror waged by the Zionists had already resulted in massive ethnic cleansing prior to 15th May 1948, and by that date they'd already taken more territory than the UN had "allocated" them. The 1948 war marks a reaction to that aggression. TheRealFingers99 said:
You keep on with that pathetic little lie. The campaign of terror waged by the Zionists had already resulted in massive ethnic cleansing prior to 15th May 1948, and by that date they'd already taken more territory than the UN had "allocated" them. The 1948 war marks a reaction to that aggression.
I notice you have resorted to selective quoting of post again.TheRealFingers99 said:
De facto they've done it to Palestine for 60 odd years. Incidentally, that's how long Gaza has been under air attack by Israel......
For the 11 millionth time.There has never been a country called Palestine. Not ever. There has been a province of tthe Ottoman Empire and British Empire called Palestine. But there has never been a national self governing entity or state called Palestine.
I know you don't want it to be so - but it just is.
TheRealFingers99 said:
You keep on with that pathetic little lie. The campaign of terror waged by the Zionists had already resulted in massive ethnic cleansing prior to 15th May 1948, and by that date they'd already taken more territory than the UN had "allocated" them. The 1948 war marks a reaction to that aggression.
Was that the war when the Evil Zionists took on the combined regular armies of Trans Jordan, Iraq, And Egypt which invaded the newly partitioned state? you know, the one where the avowed goal was to "Drive the Jews into the sea"?Damn those pesky Zionists for deciding not to be slaughtered en masse.
As for your ethnic cleansing theory Google "Gush Etzion bloc massacre". Or was that a pathetic little lie as well.
Both sides were equally adept at the smiting. Deir Yassin was a massacre by a group disowned by the Israeli government and which it went to war against (Google Altelena + Irgun)
Your pathetic revisionism in the face of recorded historical fact is, well, pathetic.
audidoody said:
For the 11 millionth time.
There has never been a country called Palestine. Not ever. There has been a province of tthe Ottoman Empire and British Empire called Palestine. But there has never been a national self governing entity or state called Palestine.
I know you don't want it to be so - but it just is.
Semantics aside, what difference does it make? State or no state, there's an area of land, a people composed of Jews, Arabs, Druze, Bedouin, living there. Even a flag! There has never been a country called Palestine. Not ever. There has been a province of tthe Ottoman Empire and British Empire called Palestine. But there has never been a national self governing entity or state called Palestine.
I know you don't want it to be so - but it just is.
You could, surely, make the same argument about Kurdistan. It'd not get you very far in Israel!
OK so to recap, today you have stated that:
1. Israel are guilty of rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing but not the Arabs!
2. That, with the possible exception of the Arab rebellion, the resistance of the Arabs has been to Israeli aggression.
3. That the war of independence when 4 Arab nations attacked Israel 24 hrs after she came existence, with the sole aim of destroying her and pushing every Jew into the sea, was a valid response to "terror waged by the Zionists".
So whats next? Are you going to blame all the other Arab attacks on Israel? Maybe the fact that they are crap at it and keep getting beaten is Israel's fault? Perhaps the events in France are a Mossad cunning plan to make the West anti Islamic?
1. Israel are guilty of rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing but not the Arabs!
2. That, with the possible exception of the Arab rebellion, the resistance of the Arabs has been to Israeli aggression.
3. That the war of independence when 4 Arab nations attacked Israel 24 hrs after she came existence, with the sole aim of destroying her and pushing every Jew into the sea, was a valid response to "terror waged by the Zionists".
So whats next? Are you going to blame all the other Arab attacks on Israel? Maybe the fact that they are crap at it and keep getting beaten is Israel's fault? Perhaps the events in France are a Mossad cunning plan to make the West anti Islamic?
audidoody said:
Was that the war when the Evil Zionists took on the combined regular armies of Trans Jordan, Iraq, And Egypt which invaded the newly partitioned state? you know, the one where the avowed goal was to "Drive the Jews into the sea"?
Damn those pesky Zionists for deciding not to be slaughtered en masse.
As for your ethnic cleansing theory Google "Gush Etzion bloc massacre". Or was that a pathetic little lie as well.
Both sides were equally adept at the smiting. Deir Yassin was a massacre by a group disowned by the Israeli government and which it went to war against (Google Altelena + Irgun)
Your pathetic revisionism in the face of recorded historical fact is, well, pathetic.
A group disowned by the Israeli government? Menachem Begin once described a massacre as "a splendid act of conquest." Albert Einstein and 25 other Jewish intellectuals called Begin and his ilk terrorists, fascists and religious fanatics in a 1948 open letter to the New York Times, comparing them to European fascists like the Nazis. Begin killed Brits, Arabs and Jews with reckless abandon, including civilians, and was also involved in the Deir Yassin massacre and other acts of terrorism such as the bombing of the King David Hotel. He became Israel's PM in 1977. He was head of Irgun at the time of Deir Yassin.Damn those pesky Zionists for deciding not to be slaughtered en masse.
As for your ethnic cleansing theory Google "Gush Etzion bloc massacre". Or was that a pathetic little lie as well.
Both sides were equally adept at the smiting. Deir Yassin was a massacre by a group disowned by the Israeli government and which it went to war against (Google Altelena + Irgun)
Your pathetic revisionism in the face of recorded historical fact is, well, pathetic.
Your utter failure to take the events related by the Israeli documents into account (many of which occurred prior to the declaration of an Israeli state) shows you to have a particularly partisan view of history.
Again, and this needs to be stressed, much of the ethnic cleansing took place before the declaration of the Israeli state. It included rape, targeted killings of just about anyone involved in the Arab mutiny, the demolition and mining of villages, the use of germ warfare, grenade attacks on civilians, mortar attacks on civilians, the use of barrel bombs against civilians, the use of strategic bombing against civilians.
And that was then.
The recent history has been little better -- "verifying a kill", the use of human shields, looting, torture, the beating to death of prisoners -- and in some cases -- Sabra and Shatila --just as bad. No wonder that the IDF is in a mad dash to do internal investigations in the hope of pre-empting the ICC!
None of this is to deny the outrages committed by Hamas, Fatah, PLO or Hezbollah, but we need some sense of proportion here!
Grumfutock said:
OK so to recap, today you have stated that:
1. Israel are guilty of rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing but not the Arabs!
Who ever said that? You are living in a fantasy world where you can put words in my mouth and expect everyone to believe them? Look at the scale, man, the duration, the claim to be a respectable civilised state with "the most moral army in the world"! 1. Israel are guilty of rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing but not the Arabs!
Grumfutock said:
2. That, with the possible exception of the Arab rebellion, the resistance of the Arabs has been to Israeli aggression.
3. That the war of independence when 4 Arab nations attacked Israel 24 hrs after she came existence, with the sole aim of destroying her and pushing every Jew into the sea, was a valid response to "terror waged by the Zionists".
3. That the war of independence when 4 Arab nations attacked Israel 24 hrs after she came existence, with the sole aim of destroying her and pushing every Jew into the sea, was a valid response to "terror waged by the Zionists".
A one state solution had been offered prior to all that. It was rejected because it was not (by definition) a Jewish state. The "push every Jew into the sea" stuff is (and was) largely rhetoric. All we can know for sure is that the Zionists (and later the Israelis) committed ethnic cleansing, that they've still not -- contrary to UN resolution -- allowed the right of return, and that they continue to make the lives of Palestinians hell.
Grumfutock said:
So whats next? Are you going to blame all the other Arab attacks on Israel? Maybe the fact that they are crap at it and keep getting beaten is Israel's fault? Perhaps the events in France are a Mossad cunning plan to make the West anti Islamic?
To the first two, no. To the third, while Charlie Hebdo (note, I'm the one who put up the front page!) took the piss out of Israel mercilessly, and will no doubt continue to do so, the attacks in France were clearly the work of Al-Q: to both gain some headlines back from ISIS and to provoke repression against Muslims and thus draw in more Jihadis. Incidentally, Israel has a rather bizarre (I hope tactical rather than strategic!) alliance with Al-Q offshoot Al_Nusra, which has drawn the attention of the UN. Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 16:25
Edited by TheRealFingers99 on Friday 9th January 17:23
TheRealFingers99 said:
Grumfutock said:
OK so to recap, today you have stated that:
1. Israel are guilty of rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing but not the Arabs!
Who ever said that? You are living in a fantasy world where you can put words in my mouth and expect everyone to believe them? Look at the scale, man, the duration, the claim to be a respectable civilised state with "the most moral army in the world"! 1. Israel are guilty of rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing but not the Arabs!
TheRealFingers99 said:
While that resistance has often been muddle headed and cruel, allow me to point out that the Zionists and Israel have employed rape, summary execution, germ warfare, indiscriminate shelling, looting, murder, the use of human shields, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Were these acts to be perpetrated by Muslims how would the West behave?
Were these acts to be perpetrated by Muslims how would the West behave?
Were -- here I'm thinking 1947/8.
Yes, committed by (some) Muslims now. The West responds by bombing the carp out of them and arming (some of) the Kurds (wrong faction, but, hey....) and re-arming the Iraqis.
Compare 1947/8 with ISIS campaign. Israel/Zionists as ISIS. Racists as Jihadis.
Yes, committed by (some) Muslims now. The West responds by bombing the carp out of them and arming (some of) the Kurds (wrong faction, but, hey....) and re-arming the Iraqis.
Compare 1947/8 with ISIS campaign. Israel/Zionists as ISIS. Racists as Jihadis.
audidoody said:
For the 11 millionth time.
There has never been a country called Palestine. Not ever. There has been a province of tthe Ottoman Empire and British Empire called Palestine. But there has never been a national self governing entity or state called Palestine.
I know you don't want it to be so - but it just is.
Prior to 1947 was there a country called Israel?There has never been a country called Palestine. Not ever. There has been a province of tthe Ottoman Empire and British Empire called Palestine. But there has never been a national self governing entity or state called Palestine.
I know you don't want it to be so - but it just is.
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