Discussion
audidoody said:
RaymondVanDerDon said:
I'd argue the most pertinent line is:
"In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel"
The UN also officially recognises 1967 borders but not subsequent Israeli settlements.
Do you mean the pre-Six Day War border? Because that would require Israel relinquishing Jerusalem. About as likely as Manhattan being returned to the Indians."In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel"
The UN also officially recognises 1967 borders but not subsequent Israeli settlements.
Edited by audidoody on Monday 26th December 10:38
Slaav said:
Jimbeaux said:
RaymondVanDerDon said:
Jimbeaux said:
I was not speaking of that. When he is POTUS, then we can critique his performance.
I have a question for you - why have you not raised the issue of settlements in any of your prior posts? Your main argument appears to be that the middle east is full of terrorists that want to attack Israel for no reason. Do you really think people would risk their lives because they just don't like a Jewish state - or could it be they are retaliating to losing their homes and loved ones - as a consequence of the Israeli settlement Policy?
Again, it would be really interesting to get your views on the Settlement Policy which has increased year on year since 1967 and whether you concede this has been one of the primary drivers for the formation of militant groups like Hamas.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
You will note that the only thing that will suffice in their view is the dissolution of Israel. The mere to and fro of a neighborhood being built is not even in the same ballpark.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 26th December 00:41
"In 2009 interviews with the BBC, Tony Blair claimed that Hamas does not accept the existence of Israel and continues to pursue its objectives through terror and violence; Sir Jeremy Greenstock however argued that Hamas has not adopted its charter as part of its political program since it won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006.[12] Instead it has moved to a more secular stance.[13]
In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[14] Hamas has moved away from its charter since it decided to run candidates for office.[13]"
Or is only the second para of interest?
Transmitter Man said:
Afaik there are a lot more Pal's now than existed in 67/73.
Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shasta in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Nice post. People also seem to forget that not only have Jewish settlements been taken down, but Jews have moved Jewish graves from Gaza as well. Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shasta in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Jimbeaux said:
Transmitter Man said:
Afaik there are a lot more Pal's now than existed in 67/73.
Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shasta in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Nice post. People also seem to forget that not only have Jewish settlements been taken down, but Jews have moved Jewish graves from Gaza as well. Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shasta in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Like Phil I have also travelled and learned, I can only hope that the Iranian people can pry control of their societies from the extremists, it is never the common person in the street who starts all this nonsense but politicians and their ilk.
I hope to, one day, travel to Israel and see with my own eyes what a secular society it really is despite what the msm would portray...
Sylvaforever said:
Jimbeaux said:
Transmitter Man said:
Afaik there are a lot more Pal's now than existed in 67/73.
Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shasta in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Nice post. People also seem to forget that not only have Jewish settlements been taken down, but Jews have moved Jewish graves from Gaza as well. Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shasta in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Like Phil I have also travelled and learned, I can only hope that the Iranian people can pry control of their societies from the extremists, it is never the common person in the street who starts all this nonsense but politicians and their ilk.
I hope to, one day, travel to Israel and see with my own eyes what a secular society it really is despite what the msm would portray...
sensible posts in NP & E ... blimey... must be xmas now that peace has broken out
my tuppence worth re Phils comments about Obama. He's kind of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't (as most US presidents are) on international politics. Lifting sanctions wasn't purely a US decision, maybe US led though. I think his strategy has generally been one of, "less hands on" and a little bit more of a light touch.. especially compared with the Bush admin tactics.
As someone who spent their formative years in Iran, i have a soft spot for the country, but i don't for one minute trust those in power. There are agenda's and bitterness' that run deep amoungst the ruling elite.
conflicts, no matter what size or shape, always get infinitely more difficult to resolve when other parties start sticking their oar in. that goes for kids in the playground, right up to geo-politics.
Israel/palestine is the classic example. Even if the PA and the Israeli government came to a peace accord, i'm fairly confident that those other governments and lobby groups would stir up so much s
t that the peace accord would be argued over and used as another means of Lobbing rocks at each other.Captain Cadillac said:
Let me know the next time you're in New York City.
Well I'm compelled to reply now even though I said I was out.Two words that begin with F and O.
"It never ceases to amaze me how tough people will act when hiding behind a computer screen"
Shalom Idiot.
Edited by eddharris on Monday 26th December 15:05
combiharvey said:
sensible posts in NP & E ... blimey... must be xmas now that peace has broken out
my tuppence worth re Phils comments about Obama. He's kind of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't (as most US presidents are) on international politics. Lifting sanctions wasn't purely a US decision, maybe US led though. I think his strategy has generally been one of, "less hands on" and a little bit more of a light touch.. especially compared with the Bush admin tactics.
As someone who spent their formative years in Iran, i have a soft spot for the country, but i don't for one minute trust those in power. There are agenda's and bitterness' that run deep amoungst the ruling elite.
conflicts, no matter what size or shape, always get infinitely more difficult to resolve when other parties start sticking their oar in. that goes for kids in the playground, right up to geo-politics.
Israel/palestine is the classic example. Even if the PA and the Israeli government came to a peace accord, i'm fairly confident that those other governments and lobby groups would stir up so much s
t that the peace accord would be argued over and used as another means of Lobbing rocks at each other.Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 26th December 16:06
Biker 1 said:
I'm not pro-settlement, but would suggest that many don't understand where settlements are located, which are really contentious, & so on.
Many of them are situated in places where there was nothing but barren land, or rocky mountain outcrops. Some were undoubtedly built for political/religious reasons, specifically to isolate some Arab villages, thus splitting the territories; what one does about these in any final deal is highly debatable.
The settlements have been located deliberately to prevent any deal which is acceptable to both sides. The current Israeli Govt knows this and that's why it continues to build them. It would literally cost it nothing to stop building them as a sign of good faith. Your point about barren land is an interesting one. Did you know that Israeli settlers use roughly 15 times the amount of water permitted to the Palestinians and that 90% of the Palestinian GDP relies on agriculture? This probably isn't common knowledge to most people but it is just one type of restriction placed on the Palestinians. You've made the point about Arab villages being isolated. Again this is a deliberate policy by the Settlers. They know that the Govt is politically obliged to protect them so setting up outposts throughout the WB will ensure that Israel puts in more military checkpoints, more Settler-only roads, things which impose restrictions on Palestinians from making their own living.Many of them are situated in places where there was nothing but barren land, or rocky mountain outcrops. Some were undoubtedly built for political/religious reasons, specifically to isolate some Arab villages, thus splitting the territories; what one does about these in any final deal is highly debatable.
Biker 1 said:
The majority of settlements were built very close to the 'Green Line' & have little or no bearing on anybody else's community.
The map below shows that the settlements are dispersed widely throughout the WB. And there's a reason for that; the intention of the Settler / Far Right movement is to ensure that there can never be a viable Palestinian 
Even the ones built close to the Green Line were built for a specific purpose - it was to ensure that the whole of Jerusalem would fall under direct Israeli control. Jersualem is regarded as holy by all three Abrahamic religions but,surrounding it with Settlements and evicting Arabs from east Jerusalem, would ensure that it would not only be politically impossible, but physically impossible for the Arabs to retain control over one of the holiest muslim sites
Biker 1 said:
The 'palestinians' either already live in viable communities, or in refugee camps in neighbouring countries, where (as pointed out in someone else's post) they have never been offered local citizenship or integration. This is the crux of the problem: if an independent state comes into being, will these millions of historic refugees be allowed to move in? I don't believe there are the resources, either in the territories, or indeed in Israel 'proper'.This problem is not going to be resolved any time soon.
Your point about resources is very valid, and it’s one of the reasons that the surrounding nations haven’t been too keen on accepting the Palestinians. They themselves (apart from Saudi Arabia) aren’t that rich. There are quite a large number living in the Gulf States but they cant cope with a large influx of Palestinians. But I don’t think it’s a question about resources, it’s also about principle. If you force somebody out of their house should they simply accept this and move into their brother’s house? The situatioBiker 1 said:
Meanwhile, it seems many of the Druze population on the Golan Heights are swapping their Syrian citizenship for Israeli passports. Who'd of thought....
As the only genuine democracy in the Middle east I wonder why israel doesn't extend the same option to the Palestinians in the West Bank...... 
We know the reason it won't. Because if it can either be a democratic state or it can be a Jewish state. It can't be both. However it insists on ensuring that the Palestinians can't have either their own State OR be part of the Israeli State.
Much of what you say is true. I would caution against the map you show however, noting that the bigger, more populous settlements, the ones likely to remain where they are as part of any eventual deal, are those along the Green Line. The smaller ones in the midst of the territories would have to be dismantled. Will this happen? In our lifetimes?? It nearly did in the mid-90's, but I just don't see any prospect any time soon. Many will argue that Israel is only the size of Wales & is only a tiny % of the ME, with no significant natural resources, so why would the Arab/Muslim states care?
An intractable problem it would seem.
An intractable problem it would seem.
eddharris said:
Well I'm compelled to reply now even though I said I was out.
Two words that begin with F and O.
"It never ceases to amaze me how tough people will act when hiding behind a computer screen"
Shalom Idiot.
Thank you very much for validating what I essentially said in the first place; you're writing checks with your keyboard that you ass can't cash.Two words that begin with F and O.
"It never ceases to amaze me how tough people will act when hiding behind a computer screen"
Shalom Idiot.
Edited by eddharris on Monday 26th December 15:05
Jimbeaux said:
More likely, if Israel and the PA come to terms, one of the surrogates will likely lob a rocket over the fence (as has been the norm) and everyone starts again from scratch. Peace will not be tolerated because that gets in the way of the agenda as laid out by the charter.
Yup.Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 26th December 16:06
Israeli Defence Minister Lieberman said last week ' Its time to tell the Jews of France,this is not your country,this isn't your land.
Leave France and come to Israel .'
Sounds anti Semitic to me .....
18,000 Jews have left France for Israel in the past 3 years .
They have to live somewhere .
Leave France and come to Israel .'
Sounds anti Semitic to me .....
18,000 Jews have left France for Israel in the past 3 years .
They have to live somewhere .
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The powerful Jews in the US, money, big business, not to mention Israel has a western democratic system. These two points are probably lower down the list than the simple. ME+USSR vs USA+Israel. If the US did not 'protect' Israel i'm certain Iran+Saudi would try and destroy them again.Jimbeaux said:
Transmitter Man said:
Afaik there are a lot more Pal's now than existed in 67/73.
Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shisha in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Nice post. People also seem to forget that not only have Jewish settlements been taken down, but Jews have moved Jewish graves from Gaza as well. Also 're the three Druze villages in the Israeli Golan, they were given the option way back to take Israeli or keep their Syrian citizenship. It's accepted also that in the early days of the Syrian conflict most of these Druze sided with Assad. Their view has now most definitely changed.
I agree with much of what's been said 're Iran and their proxies. They are by far the biggest threat to ME stability. Obama was the biggest ashore in modern US history lifting most sanctions and releasing their frozen bank assets. Did he think those billions would be spent on benefiting the Iranian people?
'Internal' opposition to the village's regime is far greater than what most people image. (Family members left in 79).
I have learnt in my 60 years of living on this planet that people who criticize Israel, Sauidi, Qatar Tec tend to have never been to these countries let alone lived or worked there. Btw, it takes a multiple offender who did not learn their lesson the first few times before the courts consider chopping your hand off. Plus, petrol is 5c a litre while water is 17c. Zero tax. Free education for any citizen studying abroad including monthly allowance and private not state medical and dental care. Send your invoice to the Saudi Embassy in London's Curzon St. Oh, and another thing. when was the last time a gulf Arab or Israeli travelled to the UK to sponge off the NHS when the wife was pregnant?
're Israeli settlements. Some are illegally built and some of those are forced down by the courts. Many are as stated built legally on Israeli land.
I've smoked a Shisha in Jerusalem's Arab quarters with an old Arab and an old Jew at the same table. Everyone gets on like brothers. It's mostly the brainwashed idiots that go round stabbing innocents. And yes, there are Israeli idiots as well and they mostly carry guns.
Phil
Countdown said:
Biker 1 said:
I'm not pro-settlement, but would suggest that many don't understand where settlements are located, which are really contentious, & so on.
Many of them are situated in places where there was nothing but barren land, or rocky mountain outcrops. Some were undoubtedly built for political/religious reasons, specifically to isolate some Arab villages, thus splitting the territories; what one does about these in any final deal is highly debatable.
The settlements have been located deliberately to prevent any deal which is acceptable to both sides. The current Israeli Govt knows this and that's why it continues to build them. It would literally cost it nothing to stop building them as a sign of good faith. Your point about barren land is an interesting one. Did you know that Israeli settlers use roughly 15 times the amount of water permitted to the Palestinians and that 90% of the Palestinian GDP relies on agriculture? This probably isn't common knowledge to most people but it is just one type of restriction placed on the Palestinians. You've made the point about Arab villages being isolated. Again this is a deliberate policy by the Settlers. They know that the Govt is politically obliged to protect them so setting up outposts throughout the WB will ensure that Israel puts in more military checkpoints, more Settler-only roads, things which impose restrictions on Palestinians from making their own living.Many of them are situated in places where there was nothing but barren land, or rocky mountain outcrops. Some were undoubtedly built for political/religious reasons, specifically to isolate some Arab villages, thus splitting the territories; what one does about these in any final deal is highly debatable.
Biker 1 said:
The majority of settlements were built very close to the 'Green Line' & have little or no bearing on anybody else's community.
The map below shows that the settlements are dispersed widely throughout the WB. And there's a reason for that; the intention of the Settler / Far Right movement is to ensure that there can never be a viable Palestinian Even the ones built close to the Green Line were built for a specific purpose - it was to ensure that the whole of Jerusalem would fall under direct Israeli control. Jersualem is regarded as holy by all three Abrahamic religions but,surrounding it with Settlements and evicting Arabs from east Jerusalem, would ensure that it would not only be politically impossible, but physically impossible for the Arabs to retain control over one of the holiest muslim sites
Biker 1 said:
The 'palestinians' either already live in viable communities, or in refugee camps in neighbouring countries, where (as pointed out in someone else's post) they have never been offered local citizenship or integration. This is the crux of the problem: if an independent state comes into being, will these millions of historic refugees be allowed to move in? I don't believe there are the resources, either in the territories, or indeed in Israel 'proper'.This problem is not going to be resolved any time soon.
Your point about resources is very valid, and it’s one of the reasons that the surrounding nations haven’t been too keen on accepting the Palestinians. They themselves (apart from Saudi Arabia) aren’t that rich. There are quite a large number living in the Gulf States but they cant cope with a large influx of Palestinians. But I don’t think it’s a question about resources, it’s also about principle. If you force somebody out of their house should they simply accept this and move into their brother’s house? The situatioBiker 1 said:
Meanwhile, it seems many of the Druze population on the Golan Heights are swapping their Syrian citizenship for Israeli passports. Who'd of thought....
As the only genuine democracy in the Middle east I wonder why israel doesn't extend the same option to the Palestinians in the West Bank...... We know the reason it won't. Because if it can either be a democratic state or it can be a Jewish state. It can't be both. However it insists on ensuring that the Palestinians can't have either their own State OR be part of the Israeli State.
Were you aware there were not only Jews in the Israeli parliament but Druze, Christian and Israeli Arabs?
Heck, even in Kuwait you have Sunni & Shia political parties. The latter did however have a problem with their last Ambassador to Iran who after seven years in office returned to Kuwait City and started to put Shia in some top jobs including the military and police. This did not go down well with the majority of the population Sunni Arab by a large majority) and he was eventually ousted.
So. Yes Israel can and is both a Jewish and democratic state and long may it continue.
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
Not strictly true.
Were you aware there were not only Jews in the Israeli parliament but Druze, Christian and Israeli Arabs?
Heck, even in Kuwait you have Sunni & Shia political parties. The latter did however have a problem with their last Ambassador to Iran who after seven years in office returned to Kuwait City and started to put Shia in some top jobs including the military and police. This did not go down well with the majority of the population Sunni Arab by a large majority) and he was eventually ousted.
So. Yes Israel can and is both a Jewish and democratic state and long may it continue.
Phil
Re: your point about Kuwait - the GCC states aren't a democracy (and have never purported to be as such, as far as I'm aware). Whereas Israel does.Were you aware there were not only Jews in the Israeli parliament but Druze, Christian and Israeli Arabs?
Heck, even in Kuwait you have Sunni & Shia political parties. The latter did however have a problem with their last Ambassador to Iran who after seven years in office returned to Kuwait City and started to put Shia in some top jobs including the military and police. This did not go down well with the majority of the population Sunni Arab by a large majority) and he was eventually ousted.
So. Yes Israel can and is both a Jewish and democratic state and long may it continue.
Phil
Now it's obvious to anybody why Israel won't give the 4m+ Palestinians in the WB a Israeli passport. The jewish people would become a minority and the arabs a majority and it's understandable given Jewish history as to why they wouldn't want that. However an element of the Israeli population also wants full control over the West Bank, a de-facto if not actual annexation. (The far Right "Jewish Home" party are leading proponents of this).
The problem is Israel can't have it both ways - they want to control the whole of Isarel and the WB but also ensure that most Palestinians aren't able to vote for their own government. That's not a democracy. Wouldn't it make more sense to give the Palestinians their own State?
Transmitter Man said:
Were you aware there were not only Jews in the Israeli parliament but Druze, Christian and Israeli Arabs?
I was, and there's potential for a whole separate thread about the treatment of Israeli arabs. This is one relatively recent example;http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff