Christian Bakery vs Queerspace
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
But the legislation has headed that off.
If there's no difference between an 'Adam And Eve - 10 years of Love' cake and an 'Adam and Steve - 10 years of Love' cake, you aren't allowed to refuse an order for the latter, if you'll willingly produce the former.
The bit that baffles me isn't the nuts and bolts of the law, it's the mindset of this business, who know they're being tested, know they'll cause a kerfuffle if they refuse the order, know that society on the whole won't support them, yet still take a stand.
It isn't a hobby, this is their livelihood.
After all, they may prefer to be seen, extremely publicly, as homophobic than quietly just make a cake they disagree with, but just by living here, paying tax to a non-homophobic government, they are compromising their principles.
"I won't make an Adam and Steve cake, but I'll pay tax to people who tell me I must, and (presumably) vote for parties who think I'm a bigot."
(there's the word - the homophobe's hand-grenade!
)
I've slightly edited the post you've quoted. I understand what the legislation is, I merely disagree with it here. It is indeed very unprofessional of them. How would you feel about, say, pistonheads selling space to an advert that said "ban fast cars now"? Again it would seem unprofessional to refuse, but again it makes me uncomfortable to force a business to explicitly promote ideals that most of the people making up that business (presumably) oppose.If there's no difference between an 'Adam And Eve - 10 years of Love' cake and an 'Adam and Steve - 10 years of Love' cake, you aren't allowed to refuse an order for the latter, if you'll willingly produce the former.
The bit that baffles me isn't the nuts and bolts of the law, it's the mindset of this business, who know they're being tested, know they'll cause a kerfuffle if they refuse the order, know that society on the whole won't support them, yet still take a stand.
It isn't a hobby, this is their livelihood.
After all, they may prefer to be seen, extremely publicly, as homophobic than quietly just make a cake they disagree with, but just by living here, paying tax to a non-homophobic government, they are compromising their principles.
"I won't make an Adam and Steve cake, but I'll pay tax to people who tell me I must, and (presumably) vote for parties who think I'm a bigot."
(there's the word - the homophobe's hand-grenade!
)paranoid airbag said:
SpeckledJim said:
"I don't care if you're gay or straight, we don't make 'gay cakes'"
is still not on, when they willingly make 'straight cakes'.
We seem to understand each other and will probably not agree on this, so I'll leave it here. "Not on" maybe, but making that illegal goes too far for me. The state can tell you who to give your custom to, and that's fair, but this is sate telling you what that custom should be, and that is not appropriate here.is still not on, when they willingly make 'straight cakes'.
The customers might have a false advertising claim of course, if the business advertised "any message you want". Fair enough, and they get what they were possibly looking for - to have the bakery's beliefs out in the open. Again, fair.
Edited by paranoid airbag on Tuesday 8th July 11:39
The legislation means people can think what they like, and in their own home they can probably wear their 'I SERIOUSLY DISAPPROVE OF WOOFTERS' pajamas with impunity.
What you can't do is offer a homosexual person an inferior service than that which you offer a straight person, in the course of your professional business.
(what professional business would even want to?)
If that is a killer clause, they need to be in a different business (or country).
Bisonhead said:
Is it just me that thinks 'Its a f
king cake, go elsewhere'. How many cake shops are there in Belfast?
Nothing against gays OR fundamentalists....find a workaround and get on with your life with knowledge that some people dont like others due to close mindedness and stupidity.
People are so easily hurt nowadays
No, some people agree with you.king cake, go elsewhere'. How many cake shops are there in Belfast?Nothing against gays OR fundamentalists....find a workaround and get on with your life with knowledge that some people dont like others due to close mindedness and stupidity.
People are so easily hurt nowadays
I think "It's a f
king cake, just make it".Gay people shouldn't have to 'find a workaround'.
paranoid airbag said:
SpeckledJim said:
But the legislation has headed that off.
If there's no difference between an 'Adam And Eve - 10 years of Love' cake and an 'Adam and Steve - 10 years of Love' cake, you aren't allowed to refuse an order for the latter, if you'll willingly produce the former.
The bit that baffles me isn't the nuts and bolts of the law, it's the mindset of this business, who know they're being tested, know they'll cause a kerfuffle if they refuse the order, know that society on the whole won't support them, yet still take a stand.
It isn't a hobby, this is their livelihood.
After all, they may prefer to be seen, extremely publicly, as homophobic than quietly just make a cake they disagree with, but just by living here, paying tax to a non-homophobic government, they are compromising their principles.
"I won't make an Adam and Steve cake, but I'll pay tax to people who tell me I must, and (presumably) vote for parties who think I'm a bigot."
(there's the word - the homophobe's hand-grenade!)
I've slightly edited the post you've quoted. I understand what the legislation is, I merely disagree with it here. It is indeed very unprofessional of them. How would you feel about, say, pistonheads selling space to an advert that said "ban fast cars now"? Again it would seem unprofessional to refuse, but again it makes me uncomfortable to force a business to explicitly promote ideals that most of the people making up that business (presumably) oppose.If there's no difference between an 'Adam And Eve - 10 years of Love' cake and an 'Adam and Steve - 10 years of Love' cake, you aren't allowed to refuse an order for the latter, if you'll willingly produce the former.
The bit that baffles me isn't the nuts and bolts of the law, it's the mindset of this business, who know they're being tested, know they'll cause a kerfuffle if they refuse the order, know that society on the whole won't support them, yet still take a stand.
It isn't a hobby, this is their livelihood.
After all, they may prefer to be seen, extremely publicly, as homophobic than quietly just make a cake they disagree with, but just by living here, paying tax to a non-homophobic government, they are compromising their principles.
"I won't make an Adam and Steve cake, but I'll pay tax to people who tell me I must, and (presumably) vote for parties who think I'm a bigot."
(there's the word - the homophobe's hand-grenade!
)Refusing that ad would be a purely commercial decision.
And making a cake for a private customer, is a stretch to 'promoting'. It's just performing their normal professional service. Not an unreasonable expectation.
Bisonhead said:
Is it just me that thinks 'Its a fking cake, go elsewhere'. How many cake shops are there in Belfast?
Nothing against gays OR fundamentalists....find a workaround and get on with your life with knowledge that some people dont like others due to close mindedness and stupidity.
People are so easily hurt nowadays
No, you're not alone. What a waste of public money to implement a law that in itself was a waste of public money.king cake, go elsewhere'. How many cake shops are there in Belfast?Nothing against gays OR fundamentalists....find a workaround and get on with your life with knowledge that some people dont like others due to close mindedness and stupidity.
People are so easily hurt nowadays
Who really gives a f
k?
SpeckledJim said:
The legislation means people can think what they like, and in their own home they can probably wear their 'I SERIOUSLY DISAPPROVE OF WOOFTERS' pajamas with impunity.
What you can't do is offer a homosexual person an inferior service than that which you offer a straight person, in the course of your professional business.
(what professional business would even want to?)
If that is a killer clause, they need to be in a different business (or country).
I am sure the cake they would have provided to the homosexual person would be just as tasty as one they provided to a non homosexual person, they have refused to make other cakes because they do not like the image asked for and this is what they have done here.
Some people just want to be offended. Or as has been suggested already set out to be offended knowing their custom would be turned down it gives an opportunity to raise their own profile.
This whole episode smacks of a preconceived "confrontational episode".
There is a principle in English Law which is supposed to block people who instigate legal cases just to provoke a confrontation. These people are referred to as "vexatious litigants".
What is the point of this case?
Who will benefit from this case going to court?
Will gay people benefit from any outcome from this case - i.e. will they suddenly find a whole world of new cake shops that had previously been denied to them suddenly becoming available?
There is a toy shop in Fleet that never opens on a Sunday for religious reasons (they say so on a notice on the door). If I was an atheist, should I sue them for not letting me shop on a Sunday because they are discriminating against me?
There is a principle in English Law which is supposed to block people who instigate legal cases just to provoke a confrontation. These people are referred to as "vexatious litigants".
What is the point of this case?
Who will benefit from this case going to court?
Will gay people benefit from any outcome from this case - i.e. will they suddenly find a whole world of new cake shops that had previously been denied to them suddenly becoming available?
There is a toy shop in Fleet that never opens on a Sunday for religious reasons (they say so on a notice on the door). If I was an atheist, should I sue them for not letting me shop on a Sunday because they are discriminating against me?
Corpulent Tosser said:
Just how is the bakery offering a homosexual person an inferior service ?
Because they are refusing to decorate it with a gay logo/theme, whereas they would do one with a straight theme for a straight person. Hence a lesser service is being offered.That's the whole point of this discussion. Didn't you read the original post?
Eric Mc said:
This whole episode smacks of a preconceived "confrontational episode".
There is a principle in English Law which is supposed to block people who instigate legal cases just to provoke a confrontation. These people are referred to as "vexatious litigants".
What is the point of this case?
Who will benefit from this case going to court?
Will gay people benefit from any outcome from this case - i.e. will they suddenly find a whole world of new cake shops that had previously been denied to them suddenly becoming available?
There is a toy shop in Fleet that never opens on a Sunday for religious reasons (they say so on a notice on the door). If I was an atheist, should I sue them for not letting me shop on a Sunday because they are discriminating against me?
Maybe eventually gay people won't expect to be turned away because of their sexuality? Would you be happy with "No blacks, dogs or Irish" signs so long as they weren't in all the hotels?There is a principle in English Law which is supposed to block people who instigate legal cases just to provoke a confrontation. These people are referred to as "vexatious litigants".
What is the point of this case?
Who will benefit from this case going to court?
Will gay people benefit from any outcome from this case - i.e. will they suddenly find a whole world of new cake shops that had previously been denied to them suddenly becoming available?
There is a toy shop in Fleet that never opens on a Sunday for religious reasons (they say so on a notice on the door). If I was an atheist, should I sue them for not letting me shop on a Sunday because they are discriminating against me?
jesus christ PH is right wing sometimes!
swap gay for black and this discussion would be very unpalatable.
you make cakes, and someone asks for one, then fking well make it and stop whining about your made up retarded religion based on made up rules not even in the fiction book which is allegedly being quoted, despite being poorly translated, parts left out that actually says something quite different.
swap gay for black and this discussion would be very unpalatable.
you make cakes, and someone asks for one, then f
king well make it and stop whining about your made up retarded religion based on made up rules not even in the fiction book which is allegedly being quoted, despite being poorly translated, parts left out that actually says something quite different.Yet this same bakery sells a range of sausage rolls they seem to be rather proud of on their website....now, let me think what the Bibble says of pigs and pig products???
Oh yes, back to Leviticus;
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you"
No, no hypocrisy in their "deeply held religious beliefs" going on there whatsoever.
Oh yes, back to Leviticus;
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you"
No, no hypocrisy in their "deeply held religious beliefs" going on there whatsoever.
REALIST123 said:
Bisonhead said:
Is it just me that thinks 'Its a fking cake, go elsewhere'. How many cake shops are there in Belfast?
Nothing against gays OR fundamentalists....find a workaround and get on with your life with knowledge that some people dont like others due to close mindedness and stupidity.
People are so easily hurt nowadays
No, you're not alone. What a waste of public money to implement a law that in itself was a waste of public money.king cake, go elsewhere'. How many cake shops are there in Belfast?Nothing against gays OR fundamentalists....find a workaround and get on with your life with knowledge that some people dont like others due to close mindedness and stupidity.
People are so easily hurt nowadays
Who really gives a f
k?djstevec said:
Yet this same bakery sells a range of sausage rolls they seem to be rather proud of on their website....now, let me think what the Bibble says of pigs and pig products???
Oh yes, back to Leviticus;
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you"
No, no hypocrisy in their "deeply held religious beliefs" going on there whatsoever.
and they should be following jesus.Oh yes, back to Leviticus;
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you"
No, no hypocrisy in their "deeply held religious beliefs" going on there whatsoever.
he gave out free unlimited bread and wine for free. they should do the same... or go to hell!
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
Just how is the bakery offering a homosexual person an inferior service ?
Because they are refusing to decorate it with a gay logo/theme, whereas they would do one with a straight theme for a straight person. Hence a lesser service is being offered.That's the whole point of this discussion. Didn't you read the original post?
They have refused to make cakes with other logos/images and they don't want to make this one.
The problem is not the sexual orientation of the purchaser but the product the purchaser wants.
You seem unable to understand the difference.
Eric Mc said:
What if the cake shop recommended another cake shop that was willing to bake the cake?
Would these guys still want to make a song and dance about it?
My hunch is they would. They aren't interested in the cake. They are interested in making a point.
And compo. It is a sad world. Would these guys still want to make a song and dance about it?
My hunch is they would. They aren't interested in the cake. They are interested in making a point.
Eric Mc said:
What if the cake shop recommended another cake shop that was willing to bake the cake?
Would these guys still want to make a song and dance about it?
My hunch is they would. They aren't interested in the cake. They are interested in making a point.
I suppose all those blacks should have been happy sat at the back of the bus as well? They were still going to get to their destination, just not up the front eh?Would these guys still want to make a song and dance about it?
My hunch is they would. They aren't interested in the cake. They are interested in making a point.
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