Christian Bakery vs Queerspace
Discussion
La Liga said:
ays who? Perhaps it'll help others change their beliefs to be more in line with 2016.
Legislation has a lot of influence on the belief systems of specific cultures etc.
Sorry but that's legal gobbledegook. Every law ever written was as a result of a political imperative. Pressure from single interest groups, financial benefactors and 'friends' are at the root of all. But much of it is the legal profession, for it's own sake. It brings about bad law because it is unrepresentative of actual popular unrest about narrow issues. And of course votes or the feared loss of them or political alienation. The law forces your 'specific cultures' to change or modify their traditional behaviour in favour of a perceived improvement in civil behaviour which is a response to a minority view. I would expect a lawyer to suppose that the law would start from a point of view that they were entirely a force for good and that the people should take their betters' at face value! That's true arrogance! Legislation has a lot of influence on the belief systems of specific cultures etc.
Edited by Thorodin on Monday 24th October 19:32
Good.
I'm pleased about the outcome.
If you operate a business then you shouldn't be allowed to force your personal narrow minded views onto customers or prospective customers.
I run a business and wouldn't even vaguely consider refusing service to a paying customer just because they were gay, because that would be utterly bigoted, not to mention simply poor business as I would be missing out on a sale.
I'm pleased about the outcome.
If you operate a business then you shouldn't be allowed to force your personal narrow minded views onto customers or prospective customers.
I run a business and wouldn't even vaguely consider refusing service to a paying customer just because they were gay, because that would be utterly bigoted, not to mention simply poor business as I would be missing out on a sale.
La Liga said:
t's obviously a lot more complex i.e. their beliefs about the benefits of drinking outweigh their beliefs about the risks. The point I am making is that we're influenced by the boundaries imposed on us by the law.
Only so we recognise what is actually illegal and only to a tiny degree. The law is way down the list of factors that effect personal beliefs. Deep personal beliefs are shaped from childhood by parents, friends and later school - how to interact and get on with other humans effectively - the fine trimmings of how society should operate in the eyes of the legislators are sometimes transient and often (other than sticking to the speed limit) secondary in consideration. As the bakery owners demonstrated.NinjaPower said:
Good.
I'm pleased about the outcome.
If you operate a business then you shouldn't be allowed to force your personal narrow minded views onto customers or prospective customers.
I run a business and wouldn't even vaguely consider refusing service to a paying customer just because they were gay, because that would be utterly bigoted, not to mention simply poor business as I would be missing out on a sale.
You've totally missed the point.I'm pleased about the outcome.
If you operate a business then you shouldn't be allowed to force your personal narrow minded views onto customers or prospective customers.
I run a business and wouldn't even vaguely consider refusing service to a paying customer just because they were gay, because that would be utterly bigoted, not to mention simply poor business as I would be missing out on a sale.
Thorodin said:
Sorry but that's legal gobbledegook. Every law ever written was as a result of a political imperative. Pressure from single interest groups, financial benefactors and 'friends' are at the root of all. But much of it is the legal profession, for it's own sake. It brings about bad law because it is unrepresentative of actual popular unrest about narrow issues. And of course votes or the feared loss of them or political alienation. The law forces your 'specific cultures' to change or modify their traditional behaviour in favour of a perceived improvement in civil behaviour which is a response to a minority view. I would expect a lawyer to suppose that the law would start from a point of view that they were entirely a force for good and that the people should take their betters' at face value! That's true arrogance!
Whilst I would suggest that many laws were as a result of a political imperative, it is far from the truth that all are/have been. Pressure from interests groups is no bad thing in many cases. We would have not outlawed slavery, the use of children in industry - child slavery in all but name, but they didn't want to upset the employers - and others so soon had it not been for leaders in the 'community'.Edited by Thorodin on Monday 24th October 19:32
The lack of votes for women from 21 to 29 between 1918 and 1928 was as a result of a political stand-off and was meant as a temporary feature, and it is difficult to see where emancipation of the general public comes into the political imperative. There have also been any number of acts passed in parliament that are against the majority view and risked alienating the electorate. One doesn't have to go that far back to see examples of that.
Some laws are not made by parliament of course so I'm not sure where the political imperative comes in there.
Many laws aimed at regulating public behaviour normally have general acceptance by the public at large. Indeed, governments have been forced to comply with a change in accepted morals.
One problem is that often the HoP are out of step with the public.
But I think there is little doubt that for the majority of the population, when something is made an offence, behaviour changes and eventually belief. I think the change in the general attitude to the way minorities are treated is, to a certain extent, driven by legislation. People's attitudes have changed, and whilst this has a lot to do with the rejection of traditional dictators of behaviour, such as the church and teachers, who used to be trailing behind modern accepted norms, the law has taken their places to an extent.
Whether this is a good thing or not is another matter.
Eric Mc said:
Did they refuse because the customer was gay or because they didn't like the slogan?
Did they ask the person who walked into the shop if they were gay?
Did they say "We are not putting that slogan on the cake because you are gay"?
What if a heterosexual person walked into the same shop and asked for the same slogan on the same cake and they refused for the same reason?
they'd apparently served the fella before so he's not discriminating due to his being gay - he was not happy to be seen to be endorsing something he doesn't believe inDid they ask the person who walked into the shop if they were gay?
Did they say "We are not putting that slogan on the cake because you are gay"?
What if a heterosexual person walked into the same shop and asked for the same slogan on the same cake and they refused for the same reason?
JagLover said:
You keep making this comparison and it appears totally spurious.
A correct comparison is the hotel owner being quite happy for Black people to stay there, but banning them from hanging a Black Panthers poster from the window as they don't support their campaign.
Does the hotel owner generally allow other guests to hang posters from their window? Did they allow a white guest to hang a KKK poster from the window last week? Do they let guests hang posters from windows on a daily basis, but only ones which they approve of?A correct comparison is the hotel owner being quite happy for Black people to stay there, but banning them from hanging a Black Panthers poster from the window as they don't support their campaign.
If so, then the Black Panther supporters have a case. If not, then read your opening para re spurious comparisons.
popeyewhite said:
Only so we recognise what is actually illegal and only to a tiny degree. The law is way down the list of factors that effect personal beliefs. Deep personal beliefs are shaped from childhood by parents, friends and later school - how to interact and get on with other humans effectively - the fine trimmings of how society should operate in the eyes of the legislators are sometimes transient and often (other than sticking to the speed limit) secondary in consideration. As the bakery owners demonstrated.
I don’t disagree and I am not going to pretend to have anything other than a relatively superficial knowledge of the subject matter. What I would say is those in bold are going to be influencing our beliefs / values within the shape of the law. They teach us not to hit people and steal for two obvious examples. If a law is created in which teachers are legally compelled to teach children of a certain age about LGBT issues then they’re helping to shape their students’ beliefs, and that is being driven by the law.
The original point I made to someone who took a negative interpretation and said it ‘can only push anti-homosexual activity further underground’, was to say, ‘Perhaps it’ll help others change their beliefs…’
Smollet said:
grumbledoak said:
Smollet said:
And it's not just bakers having their religious beliefs overruled.
http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/kosher-butcher...
Not before time either. Eating bacon should be mandatory
Is that a satirical site? That ruling is as ridiculous as the Queerspace "victory".http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/kosher-butcher...
Not before time either. Eating bacon should be mandatory
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I fully support Gay Marriage. I was delighted when the people of the Irish Republic voted to allow it.What I am against is forcing others to agree with me - or to bake a cake saying they should agree with me.
If I wanted a cake baked saying "Gay Marriage is Great", I'd look for a baker willing to do it for me - not force somebody who was unwilling - just so I could make a point.
(Or use my local Asda
)La Liga said:
What I would say is those in bold are going to be influencing our beliefs / values within the shape of the law. They teach us not to hit people and steal for two obvious examples.
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