London = Awesome / Rest of UK = Rubbish... Discuss...

[turbobloke]

GetCarter said:

Excellent. So almost nobody dies... just a few, and you can tell Boris he's making it all up. It's a win win.

Or you might be wrong of course.

Don't take it up with me, take it up with the Mayor of London, who doesn't agree with you. He thinks you are +/- 51,000 deaths off the mark.

You missed the word 'prematurely' and the claimed cause, anyway I already repsonded to that point - indicating to me that not only do you not read references linked in posts (then ask for them) but also don't read posts (and then make the same comment)...I've already communicated about air quality and premature deaths, I'm sure the Mayor carefully filed the information and refers to it on a daily basis

GetCarter said:

I don't believe a word he says (he is a politician), but I also see what I cough up whenever I come to London. That is the truth that I know.

Whenever I'm in London and walking along a bus-intensive highway, the NOx is choking. Another part of a post of mine - that you may have missed - mentioned that it would be a good thing for air quality to be better than it is.

Another thing you would know, if you read previous posts and/or the links in them, is that if you are a typical person spending 90% of your time indoors, indoor air is between 10 and 100 times more polluted than outdoor urban air.

GetCarter said:

(Plus the fact that my dad died from the crap in his lungs, and always blamed the traffic for his 'black handkerchief').

Sorry to hear about that, it's a personal matter of profound, not to say grave (in every sense of the word) importance to family members.

[GetCarter]

turbobloke said:

Sorry to hear about that, it's a personal matter of profound, not to say grave (in every sense of the word) importance to family members.

Thanks.

I have read all of your posts, and your links.

Let's stop dancing around TB. We've both been here a while.

In your opinion, how many people die prematurely due to bad air quality in London each year?

I just want a number, not a lecture.

[turbobloke]

GetCarter said:

turbobloke said:

Sorry to hear about that, it's a personal matter of profound, not to say grave (in every sense of the word) importance to family members.

Thanks.

I have read all of your posts, and your links.

Let's stop dancing around TB. We've both been here a while.

In your opinion, how many people die prematurely due to bad air quality in London each year?

I just want a number, not a lecture.

You don't get lectures, you get replies with links that you then don't read as in spite of claims to the contrary you do have a nabit of repeating questions already answered.

Have either of us been required, requested, paid or unpaid, to research this properly?

I've spent too much time reviewing the claims made in existing studies and if any of it had been submitted to me for assessment in a Masters thesis I would have failed everything I've read so far.

The most authoritative answer available to date, is demonstrated by Briggs: "...the guesses are taken as fixed without accompanying plus-or-minuses. If that were done, the study’s results would have been rendered insignificant..."

Somebody needs to do a proper job on this, but it would be very challenging due to the presence of other more material variables in premature deaths, including prognosis errors and indoor pollution. Which brings me back to this. A question with greater urgency attached to the possibly more worrying answer is, how many people suffer serious ill health or death each year due to indoor air pollution, given that we spend on average 90% of our time indoors and that in terms of the UK - and again on average - indoor air is 10 times more polluted than outdoor urban air.

Returning to the comment on lectures, the above looks to be less than 20 lines, hardly an essay or a lecture, and soundbite oversimplification never helps.

We may have taken this as far as we can, the thread was about more than this, important though it is.

[GetCarter]

turbobloke said:

GetCarter said:

turbobloke said:

Sorry to hear about that, it's a personal matter of profound, not to say grave (in every sense of the word) importance to family members.

Thanks.

I have read all of your posts, and your links.

Let's stop dancing around TB. We've both been here a while.

In your opinion, how many people die prematurely due to bad air quality in London each year?

I just want a number, not a lecture.

You don't get lectures, you get replies with links that you then don't read as in spite of claims to the contrary you do have a nabit of repeating questions already answered.

Have either of us been required, requested, paid or unpaid, to research this properly?

I've spent too much time reviewing the claims made in existing studies and if any of it had been submitted to me for assessment in a Masters thesis I would have failed everything I've read so far.

The most authoritative answer available to date, is demonstrated by Briggs: "...the guesses are taken as fixed without accompanying plus-or-minuses. If that were done, the study’s results would have been rendered insignificant..."

Somebody needs to do a proper job on this, but it would be very challenging due to the presence of other more material variables in premature deaths, including prognosis errors and indoor pollution. Which brings me back to this. A question with greater urgency attached to the possibly more worrying answer is, how many people suffer serious ill health or death each year due to indoor air pollution, given that we spend on average 90% of our time indoors and that in terms of the UK - and again on average - indoor air is 10 times more polluted than outdoor urban air.

Returning to the comment on lectures, the above looks to be less than 20 lines, hardly an essay or a lecture, and soundbite oversimplification never helps.

We may have taken this as far as we can, the thread was about more than this, important though it is.

Mate... answer the question. It's very simple. If you can't answer it, just say you don't know. It's not a problem.

ETA... I'm now bailing out of this thread as I don't want to be spiteful, and I have some friends now involved. I just hope people can take their feelings to places that will help.

To all of you. London is awesome and rubbish, rest of UK is awesome and rubbish. I am right, 'cos I've been there, and done it. Got it?

Edited by GetCarter on Wednesday 30th July 20:06

[turbobloke]

GetCarter said:

turbobloke said:

GetCarter said:

turbobloke said:

Sorry to hear about that, it's a personal matter of profound, not to say grave (in every sense of the word) importance to family members.

Thanks.

I have read all of your posts, and your links.

Let's stop dancing around TB. We've both been here a while.

In your opinion, how many people die prematurely due to bad air quality in London each year?

I just want a number, not a lecture.

You don't get lectures, you get replies with links that you then don't read as in spite of claims to the contrary you do have a nabit of repeating questions already answered.

Have either of us been required, requested, paid or unpaid, to research this properly?

I've spent too much time reviewing the claims made in existing studies and if any of it had been submitted to me for assessment in a Masters thesis I would have failed everything I've read so far.

The most authoritative answer available to date, is demonstrated by Briggs: "...the guesses are taken as fixed without accompanying plus-or-minuses. If that were done, the study’s results would have been rendered insignificant..."

Somebody needs to do a proper job on this, but it would be very challenging due to the presence of other more material variables in premature deaths, including prognosis errors and indoor pollution. Which brings me back to this. A question with greater urgency attached to the possibly more worrying answer is, how many people suffer serious ill health or death each year due to indoor air pollution, given that we spend on average 90% of our time indoors and that in terms of the UK - and again on average - indoor air is 10 times more polluted than outdoor urban air.

Returning to the comment on lectures, the above looks to be less than 20 lines, hardly an essay or a lecture, and soundbite oversimplification never helps.

We may have taken this as far as we can, the thread was about more than this, important though it is.

Mate... answer the question. It's very simple. If you can't answer it, just say you don't know. It's not a problem.

I already answered that, as you would know if you read my posts and the links in them. Asking for a single number with no error bars is not a reasonable question.

Though it exists, there is no precise number determinable in any year, which makes people like the Mayor and anyone else claiming to know 'the answer' look like charlatans. By repeating a knee-jerk question and demanding a simplistic response you are in effect asking me to be a charlatan. Naturally I'm going to refuse your request.

Anyone expecting a single number and no more is employing a device and displaying a serious lack of understanding, since due to the multi-factor nature of deaths it is only ever going to be estimable with error bars attached that are of the same order as, or larger than, the estimate obtained. If you understand what that means then we may be getting somewhere. If not then going further is pointless.

There are three reasons why weak methodology is used in these types of study, one is because anything more complex is too challenging for those involved, another is that to do otherwise might not give the 'right' answer, and the third is that such studies are primarily useful in generating headlines that will be written and read by people with insufficient understanding to realise that it's complete dreck.

[Fittster]

MarshPhantom said:

Fittster said:

MarshPhantom said:

I can be in Whitstable in 45 mins, Brighton about an hour and the rest of Europe is about an hour away.

Since when is being in Whitstable a good thing?

It was good before it became Islington on Sea.

I remember it then. It wasn't great then and massively inflated property prices and people with stiffies for Jamie Oliver haven't helped it.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

GetCarter said:

"51,000 Londoners have died prematurely of respiratory symptoms linked to air pollution since 2008".

Better than being alive in Swindon.

[lukefreeman]

okgo said:

It is a cultural hotspot. There can be no question of that, to suggest anything other would be totally ridiculous.

The people here do tend to be better looking yes.

This is why people like you will never know any better than posts like this, there are so many industries that are centered around London, and its not just finance or law (did you careers advisor not tell you there were more than two jobs in the big city?) its many things.

Yes, when they have made money that they likely could not have made elsewhere (Getcarter a good example, he said in his own words) they get to have a choice of sorts about where they want to retire to, a choice that is not so freely made if you haven't got a pot to piss in...

Ah how cute, you're like one of those people who've made a bad descision/purchase, and try to justfiy and reccomend it to other people.

[Bill]

turbobloke said:

The figure quoted isn't worth a dime, as per other similar numbers.

http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=13029

As to very polluted air in London, it was better before the Con Charge was introduced than at any time in the last 400 years, and indoor air is between 10 and 100 times more polluted (plus we spend about 90% of time indoors). The numbers from EPA (USA) and BRE (UK) match up well.

http://www.ecoearth.info/shared/reader/welcome.asp...

http://draxe.com/indoor-air-pollution-worse-than-o...

That said, it can only be good news if there's a reasonable way of improving London's outdoor air quality further.

The complaints of the first link are acknowledged in the associated comment to the article. The second link focuses on smoke (Which is obviously better since the clean air act.) but fires aren't known for producing the range of ICE particulates that a present now. And the third link is written by someone with questionable credentials (I know, don't shoot the messenger, but) who claims that there are ten foods recommended in the bible that'll make you healthy.

It'd be interesting to see how the indoor vs outdoor pollution is calculated, as indoor pollutants aren't very well understood so I don't see how they can make any meaningful comparison. All we can say is that central Londoners' indoor pollution is worse than most because of the outdoor air quality.

[okgo]

lukefreeman said:

Ah how cute, you're like one of those people who've made a bad descision/purchase, and try to justfiy and reccomend it to other people.

Not sure I can converse with someone who managed to make three spelling mistakes in a 20 or so word sentence.

All I know is that when I worked in the lovely Hampshire countryside I earned fk all with no real hope of a career. Now I don't, have a property, and a career. And enjoy all of the things that make this a great city. Still, you stick to your beefeater.

[Tiggsy]

Last night fancied a walk after tea so we wandered from the flat in Chalk Farm up to Primrose Hill....took in a view that is (in it's own way) pretty bloody good. Then wandered home, stopping for Pimms on the way. This morning I went for a run round Hampstead, up over Parliament Hill (another cool view) and home via M&S for breakfast.

My sons birthday tomorrow so I'll pop to Nike Town in a bit for a gift, then seeing a client, then home......tonight we will be drinking wine in the park with friends. Then going to grab a late train (no ticket checking at night ) for a free 25 min trip to Reading where we will spend the weekend at my other place.....BBQ at parents in Ruscombe on Saturday and Henley On Thames Sunday for lunch.

Life is what you make it!

[lukefreeman]

okgo said:

lukefreeman said:

Ah how cute, you're like one of those people who've made a bad descision/purchase, and try to justfiy and reccomend it to other people.

Not sure I can converse with someone who managed to make three spelling mistakes in a 20 or so word sentence.

All I know is that when I worked in the lovely Hampshire countryside I earned fk all with no real hope of a career. Now I don't, have a property, and a career. And enjoy all of the things that make this a great city. Still, you stick to your beefeater.

Yes, 3 cars and 1.5 property @ 24 working at Beafeater. Good pay, being a pot washer outside of London.

Not bothered about spelling if I'm honest, passed my Engrish GCSE years ago.

[fido]

lukefreeman said:

1.5 property

.. so is that with an outside loo then?

[Mosdef]

lukefreeman said:

okgo said:

lukefreeman said:

Ah how cute, you're like one of those people who've made a bad descision/purchase, and try to justfiy and reccomend it to other people.

Not sure I can converse with someone who managed to make three spelling mistakes in a 20 or so word sentence.

All I know is that when I worked in the lovely Hampshire countryside I earned fk all with no real hope of a career. Now I don't, have a property, and a career. And enjoy all of the things that make this a great city. Still, you stick to your beefeater.

Yes, 3 cars and 1.5 property @ 24 working at Beafeater. Good pay, being a pot washer outside of London.

Not bothered about spelling if I'm honest, passed my Engrish GCSE years ago.

...but two of those cars are Renault Meganes (one of which is apparently 'perfect for her') and the other is an old Lotus. What's more, you settled in Derby, sorry to hear that.

I suppose you might not be able to afford any one of the above motors if you lived and did the same job in London but I don't know many people who'd be envious of your position.

[Hackney]

GetCarter said:

Thanks.

I have read all of your posts, and your links.

Let's stop dancing around TB. We've both been here a while.

In your opinion, how many people die prematurely due to bad air quality in London each year?

I just want a number, not a lecture.

Not sure its been answered but I'll do it anyway. The 51,000 premature deaths figure is absolute baloney, there is no way to measure whether a death is premature or not. There is no way to know when someone should die so how do you figure out if their actual death is premature or not. So the whole question is redundant.
No-one's arguing that there is no pollution but allocating a number of deaths to it is impossible and what Boris has done is pointless.... unless you want to raise money on the back of it.

[McWigglebum4th]

Hackney said:

Not sure its been answered but I'll do it anyway. The 51,000 premature deaths figure is absolute baloney, there is no way to measure whether a death is premature or not. There is no way to know when someone should die so how do you figure out if their actual death is premature or not.

Well i imagine they their death involves a bus and the phrase "Can't find the head" we can probably say it was a bit premature

[Hackney]

McWigglebum4th said:

Hackney said:

Not sure its been answered but I'll do it anyway. The 51,000 premature deaths figure is absolute baloney, there is no way to measure whether a death is premature or not. There is no way to know when someone should die so how do you figure out if their actual death is premature or not.

Well i imagine they their death involves a bus and the phrase "Can't find the head" we can probably say it was a bit premature

So the 51,000 premature, pollution-related deaths all resulted in the head coming off?
I think you're mixing up news stories.

[lukefreeman]

Mosdef said:

lukefreeman said:

okgo said:

lukefreeman said:

Ah how cute, you're like one of those people who've made a bad descision/purchase, and try to justfiy and reccomend it to other people.

Not sure I can converse with someone who managed to make three spelling mistakes in a 20 or so word sentence.

All I know is that when I worked in the lovely Hampshire countryside I earned fk all with no real hope of a career. Now I don't, have a property, and a career. And enjoy all of the things that make this a great city. Still, you stick to your beefeater.

Yes, 3 cars and 1.5 property @ 24 working at Beafeater. Good pay, being a pot washer outside of London.

Not bothered about spelling if I'm honest, passed my Engrish GCSE years ago.

...but two of those cars are Renault Meganes (one of which is apparently 'perfect for her') and the other is an old Lotus. What's more, you settled in Derby, sorry to hear that.

I suppose you might not be able to afford any one of the above motors if you lived and did the same job in London but I don't know many people who'd be envious of your position.

You got me, I have rubbish cars, so apologise.

Granted Derby's not made either list, however London seeems to be a really happy place.

clicky

Funny, my g/f got offered a place in London office, and I could've moved to a Consultancy firm. We talked, and both said our quality of life would completely vanish. Swap a nice house and garden and cars, for a rented flat in London? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Vocal Minority]

Mosdef said:

I don't know many people who'd be envious of your position.

I think here is the crux of the issue.

Non Londoners say you will die before the age of 30 of some sort of horrid consumptive disease (if they aren't stabbed first)

Londoners saying that everyone outside of London are cousins or fuglies*, with webbed feet and all work digging up turnips, and they alone have access to these mystical 'career' thingummies.

• it stands to reason that in a higher populated place there will be a larger number of attractive people surely?

It seems that everyone is trying to insist that everyone is envious of their specific situation and just trying not to admit it as they sit in their electricityless shack/care home for those with incurable lung rot (delete as applicable).

okgo (for example) lives in London, because it seems to make him happy and means he gets to work in his chosen career and have a property etc etc etc. And that's great.

I don't want to live in London, as I get everything in life I require where I live. That is also great.

Maybe we can all bear this in mind before this thread descends further into insane drivel.

Also London does a sterling job as a hipster magnet, meaning we don't have to put up with them over here. For that I will be eternally grateful.

[fido]

Vocal Minority said:

• it stands to reason that in a higher populated place there will be a larger number of attractive people surely?

we're talking % not absolute numbers - wealth attracts fitties - even an ugly guy with a bit of Wonga will attract a fitter specimen. obviously the abundance of culture and stuff-to-do also helps.