Scotland after the vote

[OlberJ]

simoid said:

That's probably the worst reason for splitting up the most successful political and economic union in the history of the universe I've ever heard.

Also - the Scottish parliament is led by a liar at present, how is the Scottish one any more likely to get rid of liars?

Especially when voices that don't chime with the SNP are ejected from committees, etc?

I eagerly await your answer about how some UK politician also did something wrong at some point.




This is NOT about politics - it can't be. Politics is far too short termist. This is about the future of our country and if we want to help it by being a part of something greater, or if we want to hinder and handicap our country by tearing ourselves away from the most successful union ever.

I think i'll add Telegraph columnist to your list of aims in life too now.

[otolith]

But what if those bds in the other half of Scotland insist on voting for someone you don't like?

[mcdjl]

arp1 said:

What we have to remember is, with ALL this talk about money and the rest of if, it's ALL guesswork, both sides of the argument... How can any guarantees be given? They can't! Based on the swathes of austerity cuts westminister is hell bent on doing, how on earth could Scotland be worse off than that?? And any so called guarantees trusting Dave gives, the next government (and successors) could make their own rules up and we'd be back to square one. Self rule is the way forward and I am quite sure than in one or two generations time we will have evolved as a nation and more successful than we are now. It won't happen in our lifetime but it is a start, and good things start with a YES

So you're upset by a few years of austerity within the UK but quite happy for it to go on after your dead if you're independent?

[pcvdriver]

arp1 said:

What we have to remember is, with ALL this talk about money and the rest of if, it's ALL guesswork, both sides of the argument... How can any guarantees be given? They can't! Based on the swathes of austerity cuts westminster is hell bent on doing, how on earth could Scotland be worse off than that?? And any so called guarantees trusting Dave gives, the next government (and successors) could make their own rules up and we'd be back to square one. Self rule is the way forward and I am quite sure than in one or two generations time we will have evolved as a nation and more successful than we are now. It won't happen in our lifetime but it is a start, and good things start with a YES

+1

I don't know how old you are.....but I'm in my mid 40s - I'm hoping to see out the fruits of our venture. My children will certainly...... To use an oft quoted PH expression (this time without any sarcasm in mind) Just think of the children.... ;-)

[barryrs]

pcvdriver said:

You're missing the point entirely. Currently we can remove and replace circa 9% of the crooked bds. With independence, Westminster becomes solely rUK's issue to deal with. I'd rather have a system where a populace can change an entire Government if it sees fit to do so (irrespective of political flavour) and not just 9% of an administration. Over to you.....

Sounds like you are suggesting that the rUK prefer their politicians to be corrupt and you poor Scots are powerless to do anything about it?

Crackers!

[simoid]

pcvdriver said:

You're missing the point entirely. Currently we can remove and replace circa 9% of the crooked bds. With independence, Westminster becomes solely rUK's issue to deal with. I'd rather have a system where a populace can change an entire Government if it sees fit to do so (irrespective of political flavour) and not just 9% of an administration. Over to you.....

No, we can remove 100% of the "crooked bds".

At a local level, at a Scotland level, at a UK level, at an EU level.

That's how politics/democracy works.

[simoid]

OlberJ said:

simoid said:

That's probably the worst reason for splitting up the most successful political and economic union in the history of the universe I've ever heard.

Also - the Scottish parliament is led by a liar at present, how is the Scottish one any more likely to get rid of liars?

Especially when voices that don't chime with the SNP are ejected from committees, etc?

I eagerly await your answer about how some UK politician also did something wrong at some point.




This is NOT about politics - it can't be. Politics is far too short termist. This is about the future of our country and if we want to help it by being a part of something greater, or if we want to hinder and handicap our country by tearing ourselves away from the most successful union ever.

I think i'll add Telegraph columnist to your list of aims in life too now.

Is there any particular part of my post that you disagree with and would like to debate, or are you just having a pot shot for the sake of it?

[pcvdriver]

mcdjl said:

arp1 said:

What we have to remember is, with ALL this talk about money and the rest of if, it's ALL guesswork, both sides of the argument... How can any guarantees be given? They can't! Based on the swathes of austerity cuts westminister is hell bent on doing, how on earth could Scotland be worse off than that?? And any so called guarantees trusting Dave gives, the next government (and successors) could make their own rules up and we'd be back to square one. Self rule is the way forward and I am quite sure than in one or two generations time we will have evolved as a nation and more successful than we are now. It won't happen in our lifetime but it is a start, and good things start with a YES

So you're upset by a few years of austerity within the UK but quite happy for it to go on after your dead if you're independent?

It may not happen in our lifetime but it is a start, and good things start with a YES smile

There, fixed it for you...... ;-)

[pcvdriver]

mcdjl said:

pcvdriver said:

All (well most anyway) politicians are proven to go against their word at some point in their careers. In Scotland we only have the power to get rid of just over 9% of the liars, to change them for other liars to represent us at Parliament. I'd like to see a system where we, the people of Scotland can get rid and replace 100% of the liars that represent us at Parliament. Independence is the only way to ensure that.

Actually theres on MP and one MSP that represents you. You get to get rid of them each time theres a parliamentary election. If you become independent you get rid of the MP. If you wanted fewer lying politicians not having the Scottish parliament would have been a much easier and cheaper way of achieing that.

I'm well aware of the numbers of our representatives. I ask you what is better - to be able to change 9% (at the very most) of what you disagree with, or to have the potential to change 100% of what you disagree with. I know which option I'd choose.

[pcvdriver]

otolith said:

But what if those bds in the other half of Scotland insist on voting for someone you don't like?

Then it will have been Scotland's decision alone.....and I'm fine with that.

[HenryJM]

pcvdriver said:

I'm well aware of the numbers of our representatives. I ask you what is better - to be able to change 9% (at the very most) of what you disagree with, or to have the potential to change 100% of what you disagree with. I know which option I'd choose.

You post as though the people of Scotland move together as one, think together as one, are one united body. Yet if there is one thing this referendum proves it is that the people of Scotland are massively fragmented as to what they want. There will be a majority but there will be no united body that thinks and acts the same.

[pcvdriver]

barryrs said:

Sounds like you are suggesting that the rUK prefer their politicians to be corrupt and you poor Scots are powerless to do anything about it?

Crackers!

We ARE powerless to do anything over and above the 9% - Not crackers, simple FACT!!!!

[pcvdriver]

simoid said:

pcvdriver said:

You're missing the point entirely. Currently we can remove and replace circa 9% of the crooked bds. With independence, Westminster becomes solely rUK's issue to deal with. I'd rather have a system where a populace can change an entire Government if it sees fit to do so (irrespective of political flavour) and not just 9% of an administration. Over to you.....

No, we can remove 100% of the "crooked bds".

At a local level, at a Scotland level, at a UK level, at an EU level.

That's how politics/democracy works.

Simoid, please explain how we in Scotland can remove 100% of the crooked bds at a UK level, as it's lost on me..... Oh it's just come to me - we could become independent!!!! that'd do the trick just nicely.

[otolith]

pcvdriver said:

otolith said:

But what if those bds in the other half of Scotland insist on voting for someone you don't like?

Then it will have been Scotland's decision alone.....and I'm fine with that.

Why are you fine with half of one entirely arbitrary grouping of people and not with another?

[pcvdriver]

HenryJM said:

You post as though the people of Scotland move together as one, think together as one, are one united body. Yet if there is one thing this referendum proves it is that the people of Scotland are massively fragmented as to what they want. There will be a majority but there will be no united body that thinks and acts the same.

There doesn't always have to be a majority - the current Westminster administration is a coalition. Unless one half of the coalition is totally spineless, co-operation is key to it's success.

[Axionknight]

pcvdriver said:

We ARE powerless to do anything over and above the 9% - Not crackers, simple FACT!!!!

How many devolved laws do that 9% have control over, might I ask?

[Moonhawk]

arp1 said:

Based on the swathes of austerity cuts westminister is hell bent on doing, how on earth could Scotland be worse off than that??

Setting up an independent country is likely to be massively expensive.

So you have to deal with the paying off debt and getting public spending under control (things that the austerity measures are currently trying to deal with).......those things aren't magically going to disappear on "independence day" and will still have to be dealt with in some manner.

Add to this the cost of setting up iScotland (how many hundred-million/billion?)

......and that's before you factor in any increase in ongoing costs due to the reduced economies of scale, possible reduction in credit rating which would increase borrowing costs etc

[Axionknight]

Moonhawk said:

Add to this the cost of setting up iScotland (how many hundred-million/billion?)

Two hundred million, honest!

Honest.......

[pcvdriver]

Axionknight said:

pcvdriver said:

We ARE powerless to do anything over and above the 9% - Not crackers, simple FACT!!!!

How many devolved laws do that 9% have control over, might I ask?

Irrelevant in the scheme of things.....Devolved power can be withdrawn at a whim and there have been plenty of veiled threats that this will be the case if we vote no....

[Axionknight]

pcvdriver said:

Irrelevant in the scheme of things.....Devolved power can be withdrawn at a whim and there have been plenty of veiled threats that this will be the case if we vote no....

How is the amount of powers Holyrood have control over currently irrelevant? Is it because the yes campaign bleat about the Scottish NHS suffering under big bad Tory rule (even though we have a coalition Government in Westminster), yet it is actually devolved, for example?

So what I'm basically suggesting, is that its irrelevant because the yes campaign cant lie and bluster about it and get away with it?