Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Foppo said:

I still think Russia needs us more than we them.Their Economy is not that strong,would anybody move to Russia for a better live? What Putin is doing trying to create the old empire and give Russians pride in their country.They lost that after the break up of the Soviet Union.He is creating a feeling of cold war against the west.That is why he is populair.

Hence taking over crimea.

The trend has been against Russia for a while, Putin needs to be boxed in but confrontation not helpful to anyone.

I agree with this.

Saddam was pretty well boxed in

He still is.

[Steffan]

Mermaid said:

US thinks the motion would have been unnecessary if Russia had used its influence over some rebel forces in Ukraine. I suppose the same could be true if the US used its influence with Israel.

Nice point well made.

Napoleon said long ago "God favours the big battalions" and as a war leaders was pretty much in the top draw. Russia is simply too big and too powerful to be seriously challenged on this matter I regret to say. Whether any clever political manoeveering could achieve a volte face I do not know. But sabre ratting diminishes the cause in such desperately serious circumstances. There are no realistic reprisals that can be taken against Russia that do not affect the countries organising the reprisals just as badly. Russia is a massive country and has huge oil and gas reserves and can feed its own population. The west cannot be effective in bring Russia to task. Nor can the west seriously expect Russia to accept any criticism for dealing with neighbouring ststes in the way that Russia wants to deal with thse states. Russia will never accept western influence in those sensative geographic states. I think careful assessment of the reality of the position is what is needed and then try to progress from there. Russia could be very effective in messing up the West.

The politicians have to try to find a way to persuade Putin to change his approach. How that can be done I have no idea but silly talk of action against Russia in any effective form ignores the reality that Russia is way too big to bring to task. Softly softly and pray for a Henry Kissinger clone to demonstrate how the impossible can be easily achieved. With the likes of Obama and Cameron in charge there is not much hope of any real progress.

[Jimbeaux]

Steffan said:

Mermaid said:

US thinks the motion would have been unnecessary if Russia had used its influence over some rebel forces in Ukraine. I suppose the same could be true if the US used its influence with Israel.

Nice point well made.

Napoleon said long ago "God favours the big battalions" and as a war leaders was pretty much in the top draw. Russia is simply too big and too powerful to be seriously challenged on this matter I regret to say. Whether any clever political manoeveering could achieve a volte face I do not know. But sabre ratting diminishes the cause in such desperately serious circumstances. There are no realistic reprisals that can be taken against Russia that do not affect the countries organising the reprisals just as badly. Russia is a massive country and has huge oil and gas reserves and can feed its own population. The west cannot be effective in bring Russia to task. Nor can the west seriously expect Russia to accept any criticism for dealing with neighbouring ststes in the way that Russia wants to deal with thse states. Russia will never accept western influence in those sensative geographic states. I think careful assessment of the reality of the position is what is needed and then try to progress from there. Russia could be very effective in messing up the West.

The politicians have to try to find a way to persuade Putin to change his approach. How that can be done I have no idea but silly talk of action against Russia in any effective form ignores the reality that Russia is way too big to bring to task. Softly softly and pray for a Henry Kissinger clone to demonstrate how the impossible can be easily achieved. With the likes of Obama and Cameron in charge there is not much hope of any real progress.

Russia still needs Europe more than Europe needs Russia.

[lamboman100]

Jimbeaux said:

lamboman100 said:

There are plenty of studies out there that rank Russia nearly as strong militarily as the US in 2014:

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.a...

You don't win and hold the largest landmass on Earth by being a pussy.

There are plenty of studies indicating my dick can break concrete, when in reality, it can only crack wood.
Seriously, if you understood military preperation and training requirements, combined arms coordination requirements, communication and logistical needs to effectively deploy an army and achieve objectives, then you would know that such a study is so far off the mark as to not be even up for debate.

Countries with bigger and more weapons and soldiers nearly always win wars.

Russia was relatively poorly equipped / trained / fed in WW2, but it still defeated rich Germany through attrition (and a bit of luck, as all winners need).

If there were a global war today, only the US could stand up to Russia. That is well established in global strategic military circles.

[Steffan]

Jimbeaux said:

Steffan said:

Mermaid said:

US thinks the motion would have been unnecessary if Russia had used its influence over some rebel forces in Ukraine. I suppose the same could be true if the US used its influence with Israel.

Nice point well made.

Napoleon said long ago "God favours the big battalions" and as a war leaders was pretty much in the top draw. Russia is simply too big and too powerful to be seriously challenged on this matter I regret to say. Whether any clever political manoeveering could achieve a volte face I do not know. But sabre ratting diminishes the cause in such desperately serious circumstances. There are no realistic reprisals that can be taken against Russia that do not affect the countries organising the reprisals just as badly. Russia is a massive country and has huge oil and gas reserves and can feed its own population. The west cannot be effective in bring Russia to task. Nor can the west seriously expect Russia to accept any criticism for dealing with neighbouring ststes in the way that Russia wants to deal with thse states. Russia will never accept western influence in those sensative geographic states. I think careful assessment of the reality of the position is what is needed and then try to progress from there. Russia could be very effective in messing up the West.

The politicians have to try to find a way to persuade Putin to change his approach. How that can be done I have no idea but silly talk of action against Russia in any effective form ignores the reality that Russia is way too big to bring to task. Softly softly and pray for a Henry Kissinger clone to demonstrate how the impossible can be easily achieved. With the likes of Obama and Cameron in charge there is not much hope of any real progress.

Russia still needs Europe more than Europe needs Russia.

I would like you to be right. However I think the Russians are far too used to being entrenched against various parts of tHe world for that to be the case. The UK amongst others buys Russan gas and oil. We have allowed our independence to dangle on a string of energy from cooperative suppliers. Effective sanctions are an unrealistic pipe dream against Russia..

[skyrover]

I would probably rate the Chinese very close if not ahead of the Russians as of the last couple years.

China's Ground forces and Navy are overwhelming, with only Russia's air force having an edge

[vonuber]

"In the victims' final moments, did they lock hands with their loved ones? Did they hold their children close to their hearts? Did they look each other in the eyes one final time in a wordless goodbye. We will never know.

The demise of almost 200 of my compatriots has left a hole in the heart of the Dutch nation. We have one overriding objective: bring the victims' remains home.

In the last couple of days we've received very disturbing reports of bodies being moved about, and looted for their possessions. Just for one minute, I'm not addressing you as representatives of your countries, but as husbands and wives, [fathers and mothers].

Imagine that you first get the news that your husband was killed, and then within two or three days you see images of some thug removing the wedding band from the hands. Just imagine that this could be your spouse. To my dying day I will not understand that it took so much time for the rescue workers to be allowed to [reach the site and work].

This is the political game that has been played with human remains, and it is despicable. Images of children toys being tossed around, luggage being opened, and passports, including passports of children, being shown on television.

They are turning our grief into anger. We demand access. We demand respectful treatment. We demand dignity for the victims.

I call on anyone with influence, allow us to bring victims' remains home to their loved ones without any further delay. They deserve to be home."

Dutch foreign minister, Frans Timmermans addressing the UN.

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Foppo said:

I still think Russia needs us more than we them.Their Economy is not that strong,would anybody move to Russia for a better live? What Putin is doing trying to create the old empire and give Russians pride in their country.They lost that after the break up of the Soviet Union.He is creating a feeling of cold war against the west.That is why he is populair.

Hence taking over crimea.

The trend has been against Russia for a while, Putin needs to be boxed in but confrontation not helpful to anyone.

I agree with this.

Saddam was pretty well boxed in

He still is.

and he is not alone - 100's of thousands of innocents too, including a few thousand of your own countrymen. The cowboy should not have been in charge.
As PM of a small country, he would have been dangerous.

[Axionknight]

Stevanos said:

I am not sure any of them are valid. Look at their kit, it's falling apart, they are a mess.

Must be a laugh if we are fifth.

[Mermaid]

skyrover said:

I would probably rate the Chinese very close if not ahead of the Russians as of the last couple years.

China's Ground forces and Navy are overwhelming, with only Russia's air force having an edge

You just don't those two to get too cosy.

[Octoposse]

Steffan said:

Mermaid said:

US thinks the motion would have been unnecessary if Russia had used its influence over some rebel forces in Ukraine. I suppose the same could be true if the US used its influence with Israel.

Nice point well made.

Napoleon said long ago "God favours the big battalions" and as a war leaders was pretty much in the top draw. Russia is simply too big and too powerful to be seriously challenged on this matter I regret to say. Whether any clever political manoeveering could achieve a volte face I do not know. But sabre ratting diminishes the cause in such desperately serious circumstances. There are no realistic reprisals that can be taken against Russia that do not affect the countries organising the reprisals just as badly. Russia is a massive country and has huge oil and gas reserves and can feed its own population. The west cannot be effective in bring Russia to task. Nor can the west seriously expect Russia to accept any criticism for dealing with neighbouring ststes in the way that Russia wants to deal with thse states. Russia will never accept western influence in those sensative geographic states. I think careful assessment of the reality of the position is what is needed and then try to progress from there. Russia could be very effective in messing up the West.

The politicians have to try to find a way to persuade Putin to change his approach. How that can be done I have no idea but silly talk of action against Russia in any effective form ignores the reality that Russia is way too big to bring to task. Softly softly and pray for a Henry Kissinger clone to demonstrate how the impossible can be easily achieved. With the likes of Obama and Cameron in charge there is not much hope of any real progress.

Quite, although I'd differ that there was in reality any need to persuade Putin to change his approach re Ukraine just a few days ago. Russia has/had wanted a deal there for three months - it was the US and EU that didn't want one, as it would have left Putin with an outright political victory (and Crimea) at zero cost. So Ukraine was encouraged to seek a military solution and keep Putin on the rack - cynically our leaders knew people would die . . . fair to say they expected it to 'only' Ukrainian and Russian men, women and children . . .

There are actually very few (if any?) substantive issues where Russian and EU interests are in conflict. EU membership for Ukraine, or even closer ties, certainly isn't of critial importance to us, yet - mystifyingly - that's the issue that we chose to pick a fight with Russia over.

[Mermaid]

vonuber said:

"In the victims' final moments, did they lock hands with their loved ones? Did they hold their children close to their hearts? Did they look each other in the eyes one final time in a wordless goodbye. We will never know.

The demise of almost 200 of my compatriots has left a hole in the heart of the Dutch nation. We have one overriding objective: bring the victims' remains home.

In the last couple of days we've received very disturbing reports of bodies being moved about, and looted for their possessions. Just for one minute, I'm not addressing you as representatives of your countries, but as husbands and wives, [fathers and mothers].

Imagine that you first get the news that your husband was killed, and then within two or three days you see images of some thug removing the wedding band from the hands. Just imagine that this could be your spouse. To my dying day I will not understand that it took so much time for the rescue workers to be allowed to [reach the site and work].

This is the political game that has been played with human remains, and it is despicable. Images of children toys being tossed around, luggage being opened, and passports, including passports of children, being shown on television.

They are turning our grief into anger. We demand access. We demand respectful treatment. We demand dignity for the victims.

I call on anyone with influence, allow us to bring victims' remains home to their loved ones without any further delay. They deserve to be home."

Dutch foreign minister, Frans Timmermans addressing the UN.

Absolutely, what has been witnessed is the act of hyenas, vultures & worse.

Edited by Mermaid on Monday 21st July 21:55

[Mojocvh]

Mermaid said:

vonuber said:

"In the victims' final moments, did they lock hands with their loved ones? Did they hold their children close to their hearts? Did they look each other in the eyes one final time in a wordless goodbye. We will never know.

The demise of almost 200 of my compatriots has left a hole in the heart of the Dutch nation. We have one overriding objective: bring the victims' remains home.

In the last couple of days we've received very disturbing reports of bodies being moved about, and looted for their possessions. Just for one minute, I'm not addressing you as representatives of your countries, but as husbands and wives, [fathers and mothers].

Imagine that you first get the news that your husband was killed, and then within two or three days you see images of some thug removing the wedding band from the hands. Just imagine that this could be your spouse. To my dying day I will not understand that it took so much time for the rescue workers to be allowed to [reach the site and work].

This is the political game that has been played with human remains, and it is despicable. Images of children toys being tossed around, luggage being opened, and passports, including passports of children, being shown on television.

They are turning our grief into anger. We demand access. We demand respectful treatment. We demand dignity for the victims.

I call on anyone with influence, allow us to bring victims' remains home to their loved ones without any further delay. They deserve to be home."

Dutch foreign minister, Frans Timmermans addressing the UN.

Absolutely, what has been witnessed is the act of hyenas, vultures & worse.

Edited by Mermaid on Monday 21st July 21:55

And not forgetting the "you can't touch us" aspect...

[Steffan]

Mermaid said:

vonuber said:

"In the victims' final moments, did they lock hands with their loved ones? Did they hold their children close to their hearts? Did they look each other in the eyes one final time in a wordless goodbye. We will never know.

The demise of almost 200 of my compatriots has left a hole in the heart of the Dutch nation. We have one overriding objective: bring the victims' remains home.

In the last couple of days we've received very disturbing reports of bodies being moved about, and looted for their possessions. Just for one minute, I'm not addressing you as representatives of your countries, but as husbands and wives, [fathers and mothers].

Imagine that you first get the news that your husband was killed, and then within two or three days you see images of some thug removing the wedding band from the hands. Just imagine that this could be your spouse. To my dying day I will not understand that it took so much time for the rescue workers to be allowed to [reach the site and work].

This is the political game that has been played with human remains, and it is despicable. Images of children toys being tossed around, luggage being opened, and passports, including passports of children, being shown on television.

They are turning our grief into anger. We demand access. We demand respectful treatment. We demand dignity for the victims.

I call on anyone with influence, allow us to bring victims' remains home to their loved ones without any further delay. They deserve to be home."

Dutch foreign minister, Frans Timmermans addressing the UN.

Absolutely, what has been witnessed is the act of hyenas, vultures & worse.

Edited by Mermaid on Monday 21st July 21:55

Indeed it is. Regrettably people forget that the nicities of body identification and reasonable care of dead loved ones depend upon a stable country providing those services. Ukraine clearly is not a stable country. These poor unfortunates have been treated with less respect than that given to dead cattle in the uk. It is a truly dreadful business and now witnessed worldwide. It would seem that the bodies are being sent to the Netherlands where I am sure a huge effort will be made to protect the dignity and remains of the dead passengers and crew. Quite the most appalling sights I have seen for some years. I do hope never to see such barbarity again.

[eccles]

Steffan said:

Quite the most appalling sights I have seen for some years. I do hope never to see such barbarity again.

I see this sort of comment a lot on threads like this where the dead are from 'closer to home'.
Yet, arguably, far worse goes on around the world in Africa and the middle east on a daily basis and no one seems to bat an eyelid.
Funny how sensitive people get when it's white Europeans or Americans that are the victims.

[ATG]

XJ Flyer said:

I've spent enough time in the former Yugoslavia and Germany to know that the former change loyalties with the wind according to who's offering the most cash ...

Against some stiff competition that is the stupidest thing you've said today.

[Tonberry]

So how long until Russia get fed up and nuke us all to hell and back?

[eccles]

Guam said:

eccles said:

I see this sort of comment a lot on threads like this where the dead are from 'closer to home'.
Yet, arguably, far worse goes on around the world in Africa and the middle east on a daily basis and no one seems to bat an eyelid.
Funny how sensitive people get when it's white Europeans or Americans that are the victims.

Seriously, I guess the Asian passengers dont matter then?

Have you seen them mentioned in the press apart from in passing?

[VinceFox]

I've removed this thread from my feed. Some of the petty, tit for tat point scoring being demonstrated here is bloody poor show.

[Octoposse]

eccles said:

Guam said:

eccles said:

I see this sort of comment a lot on threads like this where the dead are from 'closer to home'.
Yet, arguably, far worse goes on around the world in Africa and the middle east on a daily basis and no one seems to bat an eyelid.
Funny how sensitive people get when it's white Europeans or Americans that are the victims.

Seriously, I guess the Asian passengers dont matter then?

Have you seen them mentioned in the press apart from in passing?

'In passing' only, but absolutely nothing at all about the civilians killed in their own homes by Ukrainian air force attacks in the days leading up to the MH17 catastrophe.