Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[Axionknight]

2013BRM said:

if not a mistake then how would anyone gain from doing such a thing?

Using the blame game to make the "other side" look bad.

[road hog]

Axionknight said:

Using the blame game to make the "other side" look bad.

too me "Putin" just looks guilty everytime I see him on tv.

[skyrover]

Romania considering treating Ukrainian soldiers in Romanian hospitals

http://www.mediafax.ro/social/militarii-ucraineni-...

Even Serbia is turning against the Russians

Belgrade, 23 July 2014 – The Office of the Prime Minister of Serbia issued a statement today saying that Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic was surprised by the statement of US Ambassador to Serbia Michael Kirby that Serbia respects the territorial integrity of all internationally recognised stats, but that Serbian officials have never said that they also refer to Ukraine and its entire territory.

The Office of the Prime Minister of Serbia is informing the public and the US Ambassador, who is a great friend of Serbia, that Vucic has reiterated several dozen times clearly and unambiguously the stance of respect for the territorial integrity of Ukraine, even Crimea, as an integral part of the Ukrainian state.

http://www.mediafax.ro/social/militarii-ucraineni-...

[2013BRM]

Axionknight said:

2013BRM said:

if not a mistake then how would anyone gain from doing such a thing?

Using the blame game to make the "other side" look bad.

I deliberately didn't go there because, IMO, it's a bloody risky strategy, there are already rumours that the sympathisers are actually Russian military so from their point of view the recriminations from being caught out are immense. I know that Putin is desperate to contain the separatists and is already probably pulling a few dirty moves but this? no way

[JensenA]

XJ Flyer said:

Puggit said:

Here's some news... British Intelligence (ie not Ukraine!!) has intercepts which prove the Russians wanted to sabotage the crash site:

http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site...

I don't think that 'Russia' has denied the evidence that the aircraft was shot down by air defences provided to the Russian loyalist side in the Ukrainian dispute/war.In which case what would the motive be to interfere with evidence related to that.

Russia's position is that it's not to blame for the 'environment' in which the defensive anti aircraft kit in question had been deployed in the area to defend the loyalist side from Ukrainian nationalist military air attacks/operations.Those attacks and defensive anti aircraft activeties still ongoing.Nor logically in that case is it Russia's fault that such an area of conflict was being over flown by civil aviation operators.

As for the alleged lack of humanity and compassion shown to the victims by the Russian loyalist forces after the event who knows.But probably what would be expected considering the circumstances and typical mindset of the culture in question.The fact is it's a war zone with all the implications of that and added to by the fact that 'the West' has taken sides in that dispute based on an obvious agenda of EU and NATO expansion.

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

[Mermaid]

road hog said:

Axionknight said:

Using the blame game to make the "other side" look bad.

too me "Putin" just looks guilty everytime I see him on tv.

but stupid?

[BHC]

JensenA said:

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

Mostly because he's a berk. Don't waste your time replying.

[XJ Flyer]

JensenA said:

XJ Flyer said:

Puggit said:

Here's some news... British Intelligence (ie not Ukraine!!) has intercepts which prove the Russians wanted to sabotage the crash site:

http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site...

I don't think that 'Russia' has denied the evidence that the aircraft was shot down by air defences provided to the Russian loyalist side in the Ukrainian dispute/war.In which case what would the motive be to interfere with evidence related to that.

Russia's position is that it's not to blame for the 'environment' in which the defensive anti aircraft kit in question had been deployed in the area to defend the loyalist side from Ukrainian nationalist military air attacks/operations.Those attacks and defensive anti aircraft activeties still ongoing.Nor logically in that case is it Russia's fault that such an area of conflict was being over flown by civil aviation operators.

As for the alleged lack of humanity and compassion shown to the victims by the Russian loyalist forces after the event who knows.But probably what would be expected considering the circumstances and typical mindset of the culture in question.The fact is it's a war zone with all the implications of that and added to by the fact that 'the West' has taken sides in that dispute based on an obvious agenda of EU and NATO expansion.

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

What's hostile to 'the West' in saying that pushing the EU's or at least NATO's borders eastwards onto ex soviet and/or eastern bloc turf isn't a good 'defence' strategy and is one which puts wetern Europe at more risk of conflict with Russia not less.

As for 'defending' Russia the fact that Russia has handed back the territories which were taken in by the Yalta agreement in good faith and then NATO has decided to move into them and Ukraine seems to be next on the list, regardless of Russia's objections,suggests it's more a case of an impartial observation of who's right and who's wrong.In just the same way that I've said elsewhere that we were wrong to support Russia instead of Germany in 1914.Being that it was a war caused by Russian aggression against Germany not vice versa.

[Puggit]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

We all know the 6-degrees of separation routine, however with such a small population it's mostly 1 or 2 degrees here. For us, our neighbour's close friend / colleague and his children were on the flight.

Bizarrely, one of the British dead is a friend of a friend.

I understand (maybe it was your stat, Alex?) that as a percentage of population more Dutch died in this atrocity than Americans in the September 11th crashes.

[Mojocvh]

BHC said:

JensenA said:

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

Mostly because he's a berk. Don't waste your time replying.

After all, why defend a "culture" that submits to such barbarities whilst proclaiming to be Orthodox christian?

[anonymous-user]

Photo from the Guardian showing A LOT of shrapnel damage. It really looks like it came from the cockpit area.

[creampuff]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

I have to say its quite a sight watching the convoy live on Dutch TV.

Every motorway bridge for the 100km journey is FULL of people paying their respects, the other side of the motorway(s) although officially open are mostly at a stop too.

As a whole, id rate Dutchies as quite an emotionless people, but this seems to have touched everyone.

At 4pm, all public transport incl. trains stopped, as far as I know no instructions were given to air traffic either, certainly no-one landed or took off. Taxis etc stopped, there are no adverts on any of the radio stations today and some of the national TV channels, shops stopped trading - basically the country more or less came to a stand still.

We all know the 6-degrees of separation routine, however with such a small population it's mostly 1 or 2 degrees here. For us, our neighbour's close friend / colleague and his children were on the flight.

I thought that was hugely impressive and moving, thousands of ordinary Dutch people lining the cortege route. I've never seen anything like it. The Dutch have given back the dignity to the victims which they did not have in the fields of Ukraine.

[irocfan]

XJ Flyer said:

JensenA said:

XJ Flyer said:

Puggit said:

Here's some news... British Intelligence (ie not Ukraine!!) has intercepts which prove the Russians wanted to sabotage the crash site:

http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site...

I don't think that 'Russia' has denied the evidence that the aircraft was shot down by air defences provided to the Russian loyalist side in the Ukrainian dispute/war.In which case what would the motive be to interfere with evidence related to that.

Russia's position is that it's not to blame for the 'environment' in which the defensive anti aircraft kit in question had been deployed in the area to defend the loyalist side from Ukrainian nationalist military air attacks/operations.Those attacks and defensive anti aircraft activeties still ongoing.Nor logically in that case is it Russia's fault that such an area of conflict was being over flown by civil aviation operators.

As for the alleged lack of humanity and compassion shown to the victims by the Russian loyalist forces after the event who knows.But probably what would be expected considering the circumstances and typical mindset of the culture in question.The fact is it's a war zone with all the implications of that and added to by the fact that 'the West' has taken sides in that dispute based on an obvious agenda of EU and NATO expansion.

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

What's hostile to 'the West' in saying that pushing the EU's or at least NATO's borders eastwards onto ex soviet and/or eastern bloc turf isn't a good 'defence' strategy and is one which puts wetern Europe at more risk of conflict with Russia not less.

As for 'defending' Russia the fact that Russia has handed back the territories which were taken in by the Yalta agreement in good faith and then NATO has decided to move into them and Ukraine seems to be next on the list, regardless of Russia's objections,suggests it's more a case of an impartial observation of who's right and who's wrong.In just the same way that I've said elsewhere that we were wrong to support Russia instead of Germany in 1914.Being that it was a war caused by Russian aggression against Germany not vice versa.

I think that the real issue here is not that Russia is in the right (although she has had some fairly legitimate grievances) or that the EU is in the wrong (let's face it we know the EU to be a bunch of prize pricks on a regular basis) but that because the leaders of 2 powerful blocs are behaving like a bunch of s 300 innocents have died, and that's not even mentioning the "collateral damage" to the ordinary Ukrainian

[Mojocvh]

XJ Flyer said:

JensenA said:

XJ Flyer said:

Puggit said:

Here's some news... British Intelligence (ie not Ukraine!!) has intercepts which prove the Russians wanted to sabotage the crash site:

http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site...

I don't think that 'Russia' has denied the evidence that the aircraft was shot down by air defences provided to the Russian loyalist side in the Ukrainian dispute/war.In which case what would the motive be to interfere with evidence related to that.

Russia's position is that it's not to blame for the 'environment' in which the defensive anti aircraft kit in question had been deployed in the area to defend the loyalist side from Ukrainian nationalist military air attacks/operations.Those attacks and defensive anti aircraft activeties still ongoing.Nor logically in that case is it Russia's fault that such an area of conflict was being over flown by civil aviation operators.

As for the alleged lack of humanity and compassion shown to the victims by the Russian loyalist forces after the event who knows.But probably what would be expected considering the circumstances and typical mindset of the culture in question.The fact is it's a war zone with all the implications of that and added to by the fact that 'the West' has taken sides in that dispute based on an obvious agenda of EU and NATO expansion.

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

What's hostile to 'the West' in saying that pushing the EU's or at least NATO's borders eastwards onto ex soviet and/or eastern bloc turf isn't a good 'defence' strategy and is one which puts wetern Europe at more risk of conflict with Russia not less.

As for 'defending' Russia the fact that Russia has handed back the territories which were taken in by the Yalta agreement in good faith and then NATO has decided to move into them and Ukraine seems to be next on the list, regardless of Russia's objections,suggests it's more a case of an impartial observation of who's right and who's wrong.In just the same way that I've said elsewhere that we were wrong to support Russia instead of Germany in 1914.Being that it was a war caused by Russian aggression against Germany not vice versa.

You really are quite good at mixing and matching to suit your agenda, whatever that is.

What ever happened to the right of self determination? And not some poxy Russian stitch up.

[0a]

creampuff said:

I thought that was hugely impressive and moving, thousands of ordinary Dutch people lining the cortege route. I've never seen anything like it. The Dutch have given back the dignity to the victims which they did not have in the fields of Ukraine.

I have to fully agree with these sentiments and the thoughts in the post to which this was a reply.

Well done to the Dutch for such a human and dignified day - it's about time the victims were treated properly, and as hard as the next few months will be we can but hope that the images from today will at least partially replace the appalling images from the last week or so in the memories of the families of the victims.

[vonuber]

XJ Flyer said:

As for 'defending' Russia the fact that Russia has handed back the territories which were taken in by the Yalta agreement in good faith and then NATO has decided to move into them and Ukraine seems to be next on the list, regardless of Russia's objections,suggests it's more a case of an impartial observation of who's right and who's wrong.In just the same way that I've said elsewhere that we were wrong to support Russia instead of Germany in 1914.Being that it was a war caused by Russian aggression against Germany not vice versa.

There's so much wrong with this I'm not sure if I can be bothered replying.

[XJ Flyer]

Mojocvh said:

BHC said:

JensenA said:

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

Mostly because he's a berk. Don't waste your time replying.

After all, why defend a "culture" that submits to such barbarities whilst proclaiming to be Orthodox christian?

I don't think I've ever 'defended' the Russian/Slavic culture anywhere.More like the opposite.However it seems like the EU supporters are saying that no one should have the freedom to say don't threaten them so long as they aren't threatening us.The situation of Russia drawing a line in the sand in Ukraine certainly not being a case of them threatening us.As for the idea of the EU yes I'm an anti federalist wether it be the EU or the old Soviet Union.

[VinceFox]

0a said:

creampuff said:

I thought that was hugely impressive and moving, thousands of ordinary Dutch people lining the cortege route. I've never seen anything like it. The Dutch have given back the dignity to the victims which they did not have in the fields of Ukraine.

I have to fully agree with these sentiments and the thoughts in the post to which this was a reply.

Well done to the Dutch for such a human and dignified day - it's about time the victims were treated properly, and as hard as the next few months will be we can but hope that the images from today will at least partially replace the appalling images from the last week or so in the memories of the families of the victims.

Agreed. An excellent nation.

[XJ Flyer]

Mojocvh said:

XJ Flyer said:

JensenA said:

XJ Flyer said:

Puggit said:

Here's some news... British Intelligence (ie not Ukraine!!) has intercepts which prove the Russians wanted to sabotage the crash site:

http://news.sky.com/story/1306134/rebels-mh17-site...

I don't think that 'Russia' has denied the evidence that the aircraft was shot down by air defences provided to the Russian loyalist side in the Ukrainian dispute/war.In which case what would the motive be to interfere with evidence related to that.

Russia's position is that it's not to blame for the 'environment' in which the defensive anti aircraft kit in question had been deployed in the area to defend the loyalist side from Ukrainian nationalist military air attacks/operations.Those attacks and defensive anti aircraft activeties still ongoing.Nor logically in that case is it Russia's fault that such an area of conflict was being over flown by civil aviation operators.

As for the alleged lack of humanity and compassion shown to the victims by the Russian loyalist forces after the event who knows.But probably what would be expected considering the circumstances and typical mindset of the culture in question.The fact is it's a war zone with all the implications of that and added to by the fact that 'the West' has taken sides in that dispute based on an obvious agenda of EU and NATO expansion.

Why is it that you seek to constantly defend Russia, and appear to be openly hostile to the 'West' and the EU?

What's hostile to 'the West' in saying that pushing the EU's or at least NATO's borders eastwards onto ex soviet and/or eastern bloc turf isn't a good 'defence' strategy and is one which puts wetern Europe at more risk of conflict with Russia not less.

As for 'defending' Russia the fact that Russia has handed back the territories which were taken in by the Yalta agreement in good faith and then NATO has decided to move into them and Ukraine seems to be next on the list, regardless of Russia's objections,suggests it's more a case of an impartial observation of who's right and who's wrong.In just the same way that I've said elsewhere that we were wrong to support Russia instead of Germany in 1914.Being that it was a war caused by Russian aggression against Germany not vice versa.

You really are quite good at mixing and matching to suit your agenda, whatever that is.

What ever happened to the right of self determination? And not some poxy Russian stitch up.

As I've said that's exactly Devalera's and the provisional/continuity IRA's position in the case of Northern Ireland.Whereas mine matches Michael Collins' and the British government's position regards that issue.IE partition.Which suggests that it's the British government that's mixing and matching to suit it's agenda.

[creampuff]

VinceFox said:

0a said:

creampuff said:

I thought that was hugely impressive and moving, thousands of ordinary Dutch people lining the cortege route. I've never seen anything like it. The Dutch have given back the dignity to the victims which they did not have in the fields of Ukraine.

I have to fully agree with these sentiments and the thoughts in the post to which this was a reply.

Well done to the Dutch for such a human and dignified day - it's about time the victims were treated properly, and as hard as the next few months will be we can but hope that the images from today will at least partially replace the appalling images from the last week or so in the memories of the families of the victims.

Agreed. An excellent nation.

The more I think about the thousands of Dutch lining the route, the more I'm moved and impressed by it. The return of the victims and this heartfelt gesture by the Dutch will be remembered for decades to come. I think it will define a nation, a nation which many outside the Netherlands immediate neighbours know little about. I think it will also bring much comfort to the surviving family and friends of the victims.