Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[croyde]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

Some footage here on YT of the motorcade (not sure how much coverage it got in the UK)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5bTqL1dcw

Like I say, hugely and deeply impressive, and finally some respect for the victims.

The same process will happen today, tomorrow, and probably the day after.

70 more victims are expected on todays flights.

That is pretty emotional. Makes me proud to be half Dutch. So sad for the country.

[MiniMan64]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

Some footage here on YT of the motorcade (not sure how much coverage it got in the UK)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5bTqL1dcw

Like I say, hugely and deeply impressive, and finally some respect for the victims.

The same process will happen today, tomorrow, and probably the day after.

70 more victims are expected on todays flights.

Lead story on the BBC news last night. Emotional stuff.

[EskimoArapaho]

Another rebel goes off-message, this time more senior: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukrai...

[Fartomatic5000]

2013BRM said:

road hog said:

I only have one question..

deliberately shot down (knowing it was a civil aircraft)

or

mistaken identity....?

if not a mistake then how would anyone gain from doing such a thing?

IF the Russian separatist shot it down (and IF it was their BUK launcher seen being moved across the border) then it's easy to see how the Ukrainians gain by now having a BUK-free airspace over the territory to continue their bombing runs.
Of course, it could also have been the Ukrainians who shot it down deliberately and they still benefit, as above and also Russian separatists get the blame, so Ukraine can continue to call them terrorists and get the US and EU's approval to bomb them.

[Megaflow]

Mermaid said:

Been watching the scenes at Eindhven - coffins arrive and such a sombre and dignified event. Bodies taken to Hilversum for identification.

Flights met by Dutch PM, King and Queen.

Indeed.

A very weird thought occurred to, where did they find so many matching hearse's and coffin's from...

[EvoDelta]

Megaflow said:

Indeed.

A very weird thought occurred to, where did they find so many matching hearse's and coffin's from...

The hearses were a mix of Cadillac, Mercedes and Lincoln. I'm not sure where they got so many from though.

[XJ Flyer]

JensenA said:

^ +1. You have some serious anti British/West/EU issues going on in your head. You attempt to justify Putin's and Russia's tactics by comparing them to the actions and policies of Britain in Northern Ireland, that's a totally different scenario, but more importantly, if you are so critical of Britain for what it did in NI, and equate it with Russia's current policy in the Ukraine, then surely you should be critical of Russia for doing the same thing in the Ukraine. Perhaps it would be a better idea if you started a new thread where you can discuss and justify Russia's policy of supporting it's blatant attempt to de-stabilise an independent Nation simply because they don't like the fact that it wants closer ties with the EU and the West.

If you'd have read what I said I actually agree with the Michael Collins and British government policy of partition in Ireland.The problem in this case being a war that's being fuelled by the EU,including Britain,then taking a totally opposite position in the case of Ukraine.IE it's all about partition to bring peace to the region not trying to hold together two totally different factions who don't want to live together.

In this case the comparable British unionist/loyalist side being the Russians,not the Ukrainians who are the nationalists and who are using Devalera's policies not Collins'.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 24th July 13:44

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 24th July 13:45

[dandarez]

Megaflow said:

Mermaid said:

Been watching the scenes at Eindhven - coffins arrive and such a sombre and dignified event. Bodies taken to Hilversum for identification.

Flights met by Dutch PM, King and Queen.

Indeed.

A very weird thought occurred to, where did they find so many matching hearse's and coffin's from...

Yes, very dignified national day of mourning by the Dutch.

Another weird thought slightly away from this tragedy... what would it take for this country to have a national day of mourning?

I can remember only one in my lifetime so far, and that was when I was still at school in 1965.

We've had plenty of disasters since, bombings, tragedy, deaths but nothing that warranted government to give an 'official' national day of mourning. The country went into manic grief mode over Diana, but it was a Saturday when everything virtually stopped for her funeral.
Perhaps those in power fear a loss of working hours supersedes everything?
Just a thought, nothing else.

[ralphrj]

dandarez said:

I can remember only one in my lifetime so far, and that was when I was still at school in 1965.

Presumably that was for the death of Winston Churchill?

I'm surprised that there wasn't one after the Aberfan disaster.

[Steffan]

ralphrj said:

dandarez said:

I can remember only one in my lifetime so far, and that was when I was still at school in 1965.

Presumably that was for the death of Winston Churchill?

I'm surprised that there wasn't one after the Aberfan disaster.

Public displays of grief have never been the British way. That is also generally true of Holland and perhaps reflects the extent of the absolute t felt by the Dutch for the disgraceful conduct that has been perpetrated in this case. The famous (if fatuous) and if actually true, words of Captain Smith in the Titanic disaster as the ship steadily sank under them all, "Be British Lads" we're held in the highest regards by the British at the time and indeed for many years afterwards.

I do think the media attention and hype has resulted in changes and very possibly for the better although I detest the cheque book journalism and dishonesty in the media which sometimes accompanies this change. I find this particular process by the Dutch dignified and admirable particularly in the silences for private thoughts and I personally welcome this display of public support for the bereaved and for all those affected by this tragedy which must amount to thousands of individuals.

[toppstuff]

Steffan said:

Public displays of grief have never been the British way..

I am not sure this is true anymore. Diana was the watershed. The stiff upper lip was slackened when she died and it never came back.

[Scuffers]

toppstuff said:

Steffan said:

Public displays of grief have never been the British way..

I am not sure this is true anymore. Diana was the watershed. The stiff upper lip was slackened when she died and it never came back.

that was nothing like sincere though, that was the start of the celebrity following sycophants.

this is real grief for so many of their countrymen/women who have died as the victims of a random act during an overseas war that's nothing to do with them.

[Digga]

toppstuff said:

Steffan said:

Public displays of grief have never been the British way..

I am not sure this is true anymore. Diana was the watershed. The stiff upper lip was slackened when she died and it never came back.

I'm afraid I was one of the many (minority?) who retained a sense of British cool in regard to that event.

I believe the two events are very different; a sad loss of one high-profile life, compared with the multiple (and far reaching for the Netherlands) loss of many in the same disaster.

[toppstuff]

Digga said:

toppstuff said:

Steffan said:

Public displays of grief have never been the British way..

I am not sure this is true anymore. Diana was the watershed. The stiff upper lip was slackened when she died and it never came back.

I'm afraid I was one of the many (minority?) who retained a sense of British cool in regard to that event.

I believe the two events are very different; a sad loss of one high-profile life, compared with the multiple (and far reaching for the Netherlands) loss of many in the same disaster.

I completely agree. For the sake of clarity, I was not commentating on the quite appropriate display of grief being shown with regard to MH17.

[thehawk]

Digga said:

I believe the two events are very different; a sad loss of one high-profile life, compared with the multiple (and far reaching for the Netherlands) loss of many in the same disaster.

Incomparable, the loss of MH17 is a terrible loss, renowned scientists that have had real impacts on peoples lives and saving others, children who have their whole life in front of them etc. in fact 300 times more tragic than Diana's death.

[Octoposse]

JensenA said:

. . . Russia's policy of supporting it's blatant attempt to de-stabilise an independent Nation simply because they don't like the fact that it wants closer ties with the EU and the West.

But Ukraine didn't want closer ties with the EU and the West . . . . the outcome of the political process in Ukraine was against closer ties with the EU, and in favour of links with Russia. That's when the blatant attempt to de-stabilise an independent Nation started, and it wasn't Russia behind it.

Similarly, it's Russia that has wanted a political solution for three months now (I'm not claiming that's because of ethics, it's because they have what they want - Crimea - and want to quit while they're ahead). Blatantly it's been the UK (Hague, face to camera), US and EU who didn't want a political deal now, because it would be a clear victory for Russia, and the longer the situation remained the less it looked like a Putin triumph when what we wanted was a weeping sore in his backyard.

Well, fk me, people have died, just not (only) the people our leaders thought would die.

Reminds me of Blair and his US chums trying to delay a ceasefire in Lebanon in 2006 to give Israel more time to 'finish off' Hezbollah, indifferent to inevitable civilian casualties.

[JensenA]

Octoposse said:

JensenA said:

. . . Russia's policy of supporting it's blatant attempt to de-stabilise an independent Nation simply because they don't like the fact that it wants closer ties with the EU and the West.

But Ukraine didn't want closer ties with the EU and the West . . . . the outcome of the political process in Ukraine was against closer ties with the EU, and in favour of links with Russia. That's when the blatant attempt to de-stabilise an independent Nation started, and it wasn't Russia behind it.

Similarly, it's Russia that has wanted a political solution for three months now (I'm not claiming that's because of ethics, it's because they have what they want - Crimea - and want to quit while they're ahead). Blatantly it's been the UK (Hague, face to camera), US and EU who didn't want a political deal now, because it would be a clear victory for Russia, and the longer the situation remained the less it looked like a Putin triumph when what we wanted was a weeping sore in his backyard.

Well, fk me, people have died, just not (only) the people our leaders thought would die.

Reminds me of Blair and his US chums trying to delay a ceasefire in Lebanon in 2006 to give Israel more time to 'finish off' Hezbollah, indifferent to inevitable civilian casualties.

I think you'll find the problems started in November last year when Yanukovich announced the abandonment of a trade agreement with the EU, to seek closer ties with Moscow.

[Scuffers]

JensenA said:

I think you'll find the problems started in November last year when Yanukovich announced the abandonment of a trade agreement with the EU, to seek closer ties with Moscow.

wasn't so much a trade agreement as a financial aid package with a trade agreement attached to it.

Russia then offered them a (better) deal.

[XJ Flyer]

Octoposse said:

ut Ukraine didn't want closer ties with the EU and the West . . . . the outcome of the political process in Ukraine was against closer ties with the EU, and in favour of links with Russia. That's when the blatant attempt to de-stabilise an independent Nation started, and it wasn't Russia behind it.

Similarly, it's Russia that has wanted a political solution for three months now (I'm not claiming that's because of ethics, it's because they have what they want - Crimea - and want to quit while they're ahead). Blatantly it's been the UK (Hague, face to camera), US and EU who didn't want a political deal now, because it would be a clear victory for Russia,

Firstly it's obvious that what Russia is seeking is partition of Ukraine to reflect it Russian loyalist anti EU faction in the East and the pro EU faction in the West.

It seems to me what we're seeing from the EU is a power struggle between one ( perceived ) weakened federation in the form of Russia and another rising one in the form of the EU that's got dangerous geographic expansionist ideas that go way above it's remit.With terms like 'rebels' being thrown around to describe not just Russian loyalists but you can bet anyone who wants nothing to do with the monstrous idea in the long term.IE UKIP supporters being branded as racists etc etc etc today and secessionist rebels,just like East Ukrainian Russians,tomorrow.

Which would also explain the glaring inconsistency of ( rightly ) maintaining a policy of partition in it's own back yard in the case of Ireland/Northern Ireland between nationalists and loyalist unionists but the total opposite in the case of Ukraine.Which just leaves the question of,knowing UKIP's policies regarding Ukraine,why the deafening silence from Farage.Is he being gagged by the pro EU government security agencies and their propaganda.Or is it that he just can't be bothered knowing that Britain is now a lost cause to the dangerous aggressive expansionist policies of the federalist supporters of the EU.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 24th July 18:40

[greygoose]

XJ Flyer said:

Firstly it's obvious that what Russia is seeking is partition of Ukraine to reflect it Russian loyalist anti EU faction in the East and the pro EU faction in the West.

It seems to me what we're seeing from the EU is a power struggle between one ( perceived ) weakened federation in the form of Russia and another rising one in the form of the EU that's got dangerous geographic expansionist ideas that go way above it's remit.With terms like 'rebels' being thrown around to describe not just Russian loyalists but you can bet anyone who wants nothing to do with the monstrous idea in the long term.IE UKIP supporters being branded as racists etc etc etc today and secessionist rebels,just like East Ukrainian Russians,tomorrow.

Which would also explain the glaring inconsistency of ( rightly ) maintaining a policy of partition in it's own back yard in the case of Ireland/Northern Ireland between nationalists and loyalist unionists but the total opposite in the case of Ukraine.Which just leaves the question of,knowing UKIP's policies regarding Ukraine,why the deafening silence from Farage.Is he being gagged by the pro EU government security agencies and their propaganda.Or is it that he just can't be bothered knowing that Britain is now a lost cause to the dangerous aggressive expansionist policies of the federalist supporters of the EU.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 24th July 18:40

I am not sure there is a big enough gag in the world to stop Farage, do you really imagine he would play along with pro EU propaganda? You do come across as having a shaky grasp on reality.