Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[XJ Flyer]

KareemK said:

To appease or not to appease, that is the question.

That question was answered at Yalta and Potsdam.The choice isn't one of appeasement.It is just one of a war which we,in Europe at least,can't win any time we're up for it and under what circumstances and at what point is it worth taking ourselves out.As we ( rightly ) decided then and during the Cold War that followed,Eastern Europe,let alone Russia's back yard in Ukraine,isn't it.

So what's changed in the mindset of the public at least here.It seems that continuous propaganda,that the 'Cold War' is over,and Russia is no longer capable of putting up a fight,all to save America from having to risk it's own place,has worked.The issue of EU and NATO expansion obviously being all about the new US strategy of fighting Russia to the last European.In which case America obviously comes out of it all the winner if anyone possibly can.

[XJ Flyer]

Steffan said:

jmorgan said:

But the problem is I fear, they are playing a game of chicken with someone who will go a bit further than we will.

Who knows, wait and see.

I am very hopeful that the West rattles sabres puts on a show and nothing else. Putin is the sort of leader who very possibly will not back down. The downside risk to world trade of another cold war, which could all to easily result from excessive attempts to damage Russia, could be almost incalculable. Thankfully as others have sad the intention does seem to be sabre rattling and little else. Much as I detest the actions that led to the downing of the plane and the massive tragedy, a real fall out with Russia must be avoided.

The fact is the 'Cold War' was and still is the only way of dealing with the potential threat of Russia.It kept the peace throughout the years it was in force to now be replaced with a post Cold War strategy which is all about using our money and putting ourselves at more risk to buy America's perceived security having lost the bottle to risk US turf in a continuing Cold War scenario.

[Killer2005]

http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-...

I think this may have been touched on previously, but Jesus Christ some people really can't handle reality.

[AreOut]

this one somehow survived...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711152/Te...

[skyrover]

Ukraine Joint Staff have stated they believe active military action against the "separatists" will be over within one month.

This is of course as long as Russia's regular forces do not get further involved

http://www.unian.ua/politics/945841-aktivna-faza-a...

[skyrover]

Ukraine's parliament votes 324 in favour of Netherlands/Australian investigation of flight MH17

[Octoposse]

XJ Flyer said:

The fact is the 'Cold War' was and still is the only way of dealing with the potential threat of Russia.

Serious question - do you mean potential threat? Because there are dozens, hundreds, thousands of 'potential' threats, but on the whole you don't do anything about them (apart from plan and maybe stockpile), because they are only, well, potential.

Russia certainly doesn't appear to represent an actual threat to the UK, EU or NATO.

Of course, we could turn Russia from a potentail to an actual threat if we really wanted to do. I'd suggest working for regime change in countries on its borders, threatening Russian speaking minorities in Eastern Europe, extending NATO membership, running Russophobic news stories for month after month and damaging trade and economic relations, picking fights in places where we have no critical interests but Russia does, policies based on willful ignorance of the political imperatives facing any government in Russia . . .

[XJ Flyer]

Octoposse said:

XJ Flyer said:

The fact is the 'Cold War' was and still is the only way of dealing with the potential threat of Russia.

Serious question - do you mean potential threat? Because there are dozens, hundreds, thousands of 'potential' threats, but on the whole you don't do anything about them (apart from plan and maybe stockpile), because they are only, well, potential.

Russia certainly doesn't appear to represent an actual threat to the UK, EU or NATO.

Of course, we could turn Russia from a potentail to an actual threat if we really wanted to do. I'd suggest working for regime change in countries on its borders, threatening Russian speaking minorities in Eastern Europe, extending NATO membership, running Russophobic news stories for month after month and damaging trade and economic relations, picking fights in places where we have no critical interests but Russia does, policies based on willful ignorance of the political imperatives facing any government in Russia . . .

That's exactly the point which I've referred to.In that the Cold War was nothing more than a defensive stand off which recognised the territorial interests of both sides drawn along reasonable lines.Unlike the situation since in which EU and NATO expansion has destabilised that defensive relationship between the two 'potential' adversaries.

[petrolsniffer]

http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/07/31/selfie-addi... oh dear

[hidetheelephants]

petrolsniffer said:

http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/07/31/selfie-addi... oh dear

What a spaz; I guess the russians don't give their troops much in the way of operational security briefings.

[skyrover]

In related news... Russia clamps down on the internet

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-28583669

[KareemK]

On the one hand Russia arms the rebels who use those arms to shoot down a passenger jet full of innocent people.

On the other hand America arms Israel who use those arms to slaughter innocents in Gaza.

http://news.sky.com/story/1311134/why-obamas-hands...

The world is ruled by 'self-interest'.

[irocfan]

KareemK said:

On the one hand Russia arms the rebels who use those arms to shoot down a passenger jet full of innocent people.

On the other hand America arms Israel who use those arms to slaughter innocents in Gaza.

http://news.sky.com/story/1311134/why-obamas-hands...

The world is ruled by 'self-interest'.

hardly comparing like with like - the fkwits in Gaza want to wipe Israel off the map, and have done since 1947. The Ukraine situation stems from a legitimate government being overthrown and a significant minority proportion of the population being unhappy with this... problem being this minority has a big bruv next-door

[KareemK]

irocfan said:

KareemK said:

On the one hand Russia arms the rebels who use those arms to shoot down a passenger jet full of innocent people.

On the other hand America arms Israel who use those arms to slaughter innocents in Gaza.

http://news.sky.com/story/1311134/why-obamas-hands...

The world is ruled by 'self-interest'.

hardly comparing like with like - the fkwits in Gaza want to wipe Israel off the map, and have done since 1947. The Ukraine situation stems from a legitimate government being overthrown and a significant minority proportion of the population being unhappy with this... problem being this minority has a big bruv next-door

Au contraire. Both the pro-Russian people in Eastern Ukraine now and the Israelis in Palestine pre-1947 wanted to set-up seperate autonomous states.

What seperates them is about 57 years.

Neither could survive without the backing of its big brother.

[XJ Flyer]

KareemK said:

irocfan said:

KareemK said:

On the one hand Russia arms the rebels who use those arms to shoot down a passenger jet full of innocent people.

On the other hand America arms Israel who use those arms to slaughter innocents in Gaza.

http://news.sky.com/story/1311134/why-obamas-hands...

The world is ruled by 'self-interest'.

hardly comparing like with like - the fkwits in Gaza want to wipe Israel off the map, and have done since 1947. The Ukraine situation stems from a legitimate government being overthrown and a significant minority proportion of the population being unhappy with this... problem being this minority has a big bruv next-door

Au contraire. Both the pro-Russian people in Eastern Ukraine now and the Israelis in Palestine pre-1947 wanted to set-up seperate autonomous states.

What seperates them is about 57 years.

Neither could survive without the backing of its big brother.

Just like the Ulster Loyalist/Unionists in Northern Ireland and Israel all the Russian side in the Ukrainian dispute wants is to be left alone to live in it's own place under it's own flag.All of which have their ( rightful )powerful supporters in the form of the British,Russian and US governments.

As for Israel it's obvious who are the aggressors and have been since the state of Israel was set up.While it's equally obvious what would happen 'if' Israel was to disarm and just rely on the so called 'innocence' of the Arab populations surrounding it for the survival of the Israeli population instead of the IDF.

The glaring contradiction and hypocricy in this case being that of UK/EU and US policy concerning Russia's interests in Ukraine.

In addition to a certain extent the anti Israeli UK position in the case of Israel.Which has also existed since the formation of that country.

[irocfan]

XJ Flyer said:

In addition to a certain extent the anti Israeli UK position in the case of Israel.Which has also existed since the formation of that country.

well given the fact that Jewish terrorists blew up a hotel full of Brits (army) giving the largest loss of life to terrorism until 9/11 I can understand it to a point

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

Just like the Ulster Loyalist/Unionists in Northern Ireland and Israel all the Russian side in the Ukrainian dispute wants is to be left alone to live in it's own place under it's own flag.All of which have their ( rightful )powerful supporters in the form of the British,Russian and US governments.

As for Israel it's obvious who are the aggressors and have been since the state of Israel was set up.While it's equally obvious what would happen 'if' Israel was to disarm and just rely on the so called 'innocence' of the Arab populations surrounding it for the survival of the Israeli population instead of the IDF.

The glaring contradiction and hypocricy in this case being that of UK/EU and US policy concerning Russia's interests in Ukraine.

In addition to a certain extent the anti Israeli UK position in the case of Israel.Which has also existed since the formation of that country.

XJ - just what is is like being you?

You spend an inordinate amount of time posting endlessly repetitive stuff about US/EU vs Russian hegemony and how awful the EU and the West are for poking the Russian bear. blah blah blah..

You go around and around in circles, saying the same things.

People drift off and then new people wander in and you start all over again on your mission to educate.

It must be exhausting. Is someone paying you?

If not, then you need a hobby.

[XJ Flyer]

irocfan said:

XJ Flyer said:

In addition to a certain extent the anti Israeli UK position in the case of Israel.Which has also existed since the formation of that country.

well given the fact that Jewish terrorists blew up a hotel full of Brits (army) giving the largest loss of life to terrorism until 9/11 I can understand it to a point

History shows that there is a key difference between freedom fighter as opposed to terrorist.In which case it becomes all about the rights and wrongs of the dispute and not one of taking sides depending on domestic government policy.In general the title IDF means what it says in being a defensive force not an aggressive one and that has applied since the formation of Israel.

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

XJ Flyer said:

Just like the Ulster Loyalist/Unionists in Northern Ireland and Israel all the Russian side in the Ukrainian dispute wants is to be left alone to live in it's own place under it's own flag.All of which have their ( rightful )powerful supporters in the form of the British,Russian and US governments.

As for Israel it's obvious who are the aggressors and have been since the state of Israel was set up.While it's equally obvious what would happen 'if' Israel was to disarm and just rely on the so called 'innocence' of the Arab populations surrounding it for the survival of the Israeli population instead of the IDF.

The glaring contradiction and hypocricy in this case being that of UK/EU and US policy concerning Russia's interests in Ukraine.

In addition to a certain extent the anti Israeli UK position in the case of Israel.Which has also existed since the formation of that country.

XJ - just what is is like being you?

You spend an inordinate amount of time posting endlessly repetitive stuff about US/EU vs Russian hegemony and how awful the EU and the West are for poking the Russian bear. blah blah blah..

You go around and around in circles, saying the same things.

People drift off and then new people wander in and you start all over again on your mission to educate.

It must be exhausting. Is someone paying you?

If not, then you need a hobby.

Or just pointing out that not everyone in the country supports the pro EU,pro Arab,anti Israeli,government propaganda line.Mission to educate against an obvious agenda of UK government propaganda wether it be global warming or full on EU federalist participant absolutely.

[irocfan]

XJ Flyer said:

irocfan said:

XJ Flyer said:

In addition to a certain extent the anti Israeli UK position in the case of Israel.Which has also existed since the formation of that country.

well given the fact that Jewish terrorists blew up a hotel full of Brits (army) giving the largest loss of life to terrorism until 9/11 I can understand it to a point

History shows that there is a key difference between freedom fighter as opposed to terrorist.In which case it becomes all about the rights and wrongs of the dispute and not one of taking sides depending on domestic government policy.In general the title IDF means what it says in being a defensive force not an aggressive one and that has applied since the formation of Israel.

the ONLY thing history shows vis-a-vis terrorist/freedom-fighter is who won.