Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
That's entirely dependant upon who's side of the story you believe. One version being that the Ukranians actively want to move closer to the West, Putin, crapping himself that this will unravel the rest of his empire is doing whatever it takes to prevent it, including putting Russian troops and equipment up against them posing as 'seperatists'
KareemK said:
irocfan said:
the ONLY thing history shows vis-a-vis terrorist/freedom-fighter is who won.
That is entirely correct.Take Northern Ireland or the Falklands etc.
The British insist that the "will of the people" in those places is to stay British.
"Fair enough" and we'll shed our own blood defending that right albeit they're half way round the globe.
Likewise the will of the Eastern Ukrainians is return to Russia or become a willing Russian satellite state.
Strangely though thats "not fair enough" and we'll actively agitate against that even though Eastern Ukraine is on Russia's border and not half the planet away.
Somewhere in the Universe there's a planet where all of this boolocks has been seen for what it is and dispensed with.
k off. Now if the people within Group B decide to redraw the line before Group A crosses over. That's ok because the will of the people means the line no longer exists.It's not what happens. It's about the order it happens in. One way is illegal, the other is not. The result can be the same.
2013BRM said:
That's entirely dependant upon who's side of the story you believe. One version being that the Ukranians actively want to move closer to the West, Putin, crapping himself that this will unravel the rest of his empire is doing whatever it takes to prevent it, including putting Russian troops and equipment up against them posing as 'seperatists'
Anybody who thinks that the Eastern Ukrainians want to remain a part of Greater Ukraine just isn't paying attention.2013BRM said:
That's entirely dependant upon who's side of the story you believe. One version being that the Ukranians actively want to move closer to the West, Putin, crapping himself that this will unravel the rest of his empire is doing whatever it takes to prevent it, including putting Russian troops and equipment up against them posing as 'seperatists'
I think that account falls over on several counts - firstly, 'Ukrainians' were broadly evenly divided on the issue of moving closer to the West, but the outcome of the democratic process was against it - then came the coup.NATO membership for Ukraine is clearly a red line for Russia (and not an attractive proposition for NATO anyway - where's the upside to justify the risk?), but Moscow has wanted a political settlement - almost any political settlement - for nearly four months now. It has Crimea and wants to quit whilst ahead - it's the West that has encouraged and supported a military solution.
Munter said:
KareemK said:
irocfan said:
the ONLY thing history shows vis-a-vis terrorist/freedom-fighter is who won.
That is entirely correct.Take Northern Ireland or the Falklands etc.
The British insist that the "will of the people" in those places is to stay British.
"Fair enough" and we'll shed our own blood defending that right albeit they're half way round the globe.
Likewise the will of the Eastern Ukrainians is return to Russia or become a willing Russian satellite state.
Strangely though thats "not fair enough" and we'll actively agitate against that even though Eastern Ukraine is on Russia's border and not half the planet away.
Somewhere in the Universe there's a planet where all of this boolocks has been seen for what it is and dispensed with.
k off. Now if the people within Group B decide to redraw the line before Group A crosses over. That's ok because the will of the people means the line no longer exists.It's not what happens. It's about the order it happens in. One way is illegal, the other is not. The result can be the same.
The fact is the issues in Ukraine are as near to those in Ireland as it gets with two opposing Russian loyalist v Ukrainian nationalist populations.With the difference that Russia seems to want to limit action taken to the part of Ukraine which is in dispute.With the UK government taking a contradictory position in the respective cases.
This was in the local Singapore paper today :
HANGZHOU (China) — A parachute for every passenger on board an aircraft may not be a pipe dream in the near future if plans to commercialise the use of carbon aerogel — the world’s lightest material — take off.
Carbon aerogel — with a density only one-sixth of that of the air — was developed by Chinese scientists at Zhejiang University using cutting-edge nanotechnology.
It can be used to create a parachute as small and as light as a cotton shirt, said professor of polymer science and engineering Gao Chao, who led the government-funded study in creating the material. Given the elasticity of carbon aerogel, the parachute could be worn as a T-shirt during flight and could be released to form a sphere of more than 3m in diameter.
The shape taken by the parachute would significantly reduce the passenger’s speed of descent and absorb shock upon landing, he told Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post.
Supplying a 300-seat Boeing 777 jetliner with aerogel parachutes would add just 60kg to the aircraft, said Professor Gao, adding that he had been contacted by some manufacturers to develop a new line of clothing using carbon aerogel.
While wearing parachutes throughout a flight may offer mental relief to passengers who suffer from flight panic, Prof Gao conceded that there are many hurdles that must be overcome first.
Improvements are still needed to make carbon aerogel stronger and more lasting, although Mr Gao said he is optimistic that the technological constraints could be overcome.
Then, there is a need to train passengers on how to operate a standard parachute during an emergency — or chaos may result if a passenger were to accidentally activate a parachute during an otherwise smooth flight.
Although a parachute may be useless when a plane crashes with all its doors closed, Mr Gao said: “If the plane disintegrates in mid-air — like if it were to be hit by a missile — the parachutes would give some passengers a chance of survival.”
Mr Qi Yun, a life-saving equipment research scientist with the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, said that while the new technology made providing parachutes on civilian aircraft more feasible, there are still plenty of red tape that must be overcome before the parachutes could be used for commercial planes.
“The parachute issue is a taboo topic in the civil aviation industry. Airlines have long had an unspoken agreement that parachutes should not be provided on a scheduled flight,” he told the Post.
Their concerns include the possibility of passengers, who are equipped with parachutes, requesting for the plane doors to be opened so they could leave mid-flight — which could lead to chaos if others were to follow suit.
Allowing a passenger to wear his own parachute on board the plane may also bring discomfort to others.
“I do not think an airline would allow such passengers on board as it would make other passengers without the parachute feel nervous,” Mr Qi said. AGENCIES
Thought it was April 1st !!
HANGZHOU (China) — A parachute for every passenger on board an aircraft may not be a pipe dream in the near future if plans to commercialise the use of carbon aerogel — the world’s lightest material — take off.
Carbon aerogel — with a density only one-sixth of that of the air — was developed by Chinese scientists at Zhejiang University using cutting-edge nanotechnology.
It can be used to create a parachute as small and as light as a cotton shirt, said professor of polymer science and engineering Gao Chao, who led the government-funded study in creating the material. Given the elasticity of carbon aerogel, the parachute could be worn as a T-shirt during flight and could be released to form a sphere of more than 3m in diameter.
The shape taken by the parachute would significantly reduce the passenger’s speed of descent and absorb shock upon landing, he told Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post.
Supplying a 300-seat Boeing 777 jetliner with aerogel parachutes would add just 60kg to the aircraft, said Professor Gao, adding that he had been contacted by some manufacturers to develop a new line of clothing using carbon aerogel.
While wearing parachutes throughout a flight may offer mental relief to passengers who suffer from flight panic, Prof Gao conceded that there are many hurdles that must be overcome first.
Improvements are still needed to make carbon aerogel stronger and more lasting, although Mr Gao said he is optimistic that the technological constraints could be overcome.
Then, there is a need to train passengers on how to operate a standard parachute during an emergency — or chaos may result if a passenger were to accidentally activate a parachute during an otherwise smooth flight.
Although a parachute may be useless when a plane crashes with all its doors closed, Mr Gao said: “If the plane disintegrates in mid-air — like if it were to be hit by a missile — the parachutes would give some passengers a chance of survival.”
Mr Qi Yun, a life-saving equipment research scientist with the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, said that while the new technology made providing parachutes on civilian aircraft more feasible, there are still plenty of red tape that must be overcome before the parachutes could be used for commercial planes.
“The parachute issue is a taboo topic in the civil aviation industry. Airlines have long had an unspoken agreement that parachutes should not be provided on a scheduled flight,” he told the Post.
Their concerns include the possibility of passengers, who are equipped with parachutes, requesting for the plane doors to be opened so they could leave mid-flight — which could lead to chaos if others were to follow suit.
Allowing a passenger to wear his own parachute on board the plane may also bring discomfort to others.
“I do not think an airline would allow such passengers on board as it would make other passengers without the parachute feel nervous,” Mr Qi said. AGENCIES
Thought it was April 1st !!
Octoposse said:
2013BRM said:
That's entirely dependant upon who's side of the story you believe. One version being that the Ukranians actively want to move closer to the West, Putin, crapping himself that this will unravel the rest of his empire is doing whatever it takes to prevent it, including putting Russian troops and equipment up against them posing as 'seperatists'
I think that account falls over on several counts - firstly, 'Ukrainians' were broadly evenly divided on the issue of moving closer to the West, but the outcome of the democratic process was against it - then came the coup.NATO membership for Ukraine is clearly a red line for Russia (and not an attractive proposition for NATO anyway - where's the upside to justify the risk?), but Moscow has wanted a political settlement - almost any political settlement - for nearly four months now. It has Crimea and wants to quit whilst ahead - it's the West that has encouraged and supported a military solution.
Ironically it seems to be all about the West wanting to move away from the MAD strategy to a more conventional warfare based one using offence strategy.Which actually makes the probability of the MAD situation much higher at least in Europe while providing America with more time and space for an exit strategy to save itself at the expense of Europe 'if'/when it all kicks off at any point in the future.I'd guess that the whole issue could be/ have been stopped 'if' Russia had replaced it's Cold War strategy with one one which just based it's defence,against NATO,on targetting America strategically first and foremost regardless.
Which would obviously neutralise by making pointless what seems to be an obvious NATO plan of replacing the MAD strategy with one of 'containment'.Thereby unilaterally returning the status quo and stand off situation of the Cold War the removal of which is the real problem.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 1st August 17:50
toppstuff said:
I think he thinks he's Tom Clancy.
I read Command Authority this spring - I began to wonder if it was non-fiction...Amazon reviewer said:
In his last book, the author said goodbye in great style because novel for its subject has the threat of great global conflict that our main character has the ability to prevent.
Ryan, who is known former secret agent from Clancy's earlier novels, is still in a White House as re-elected US President.
Jack's son, Jack Ryan Jr. is working in UK as a financial analyst and when unusual case of Russian violent gas and oil company takeover happens, he would immediately suspect that something is wrong.
In an interesting turn of events that will start to happen, ambitious Russian president who wants to restore former glory and size of USSR will choose Ukraine as next victim after his plan for violent annexation of the Baltic countries failed.
Russian plan is to finance such an ambitious and expensive undertaking by the sale of oil and gas, which would again return Russia among key players on the world political scene.
Ryan, who is known former secret agent from Clancy's earlier novels, is still in a White House as re-elected US President.
Jack's son, Jack Ryan Jr. is working in UK as a financial analyst and when unusual case of Russian violent gas and oil company takeover happens, he would immediately suspect that something is wrong.
In an interesting turn of events that will start to happen, ambitious Russian president who wants to restore former glory and size of USSR will choose Ukraine as next victim after his plan for violent annexation of the Baltic countries failed.
Russian plan is to finance such an ambitious and expensive undertaking by the sale of oil and gas, which would again return Russia among key players on the world political scene.
XJ Flyer said:
That definition still leaves the inconvenient issue of the difference between UK government policy in Northern Ireland as opposed to Ukraine.IE the British army were in Ireland fighting with the Irish nationalists long before the Northern Irish border and partition took place.
The fact is the issues in Ukraine are as near to those in Ireland as it gets with two opposing Russian loyalist v Ukrainian nationalist populations.With the difference that Russia seems to want to limit action taken to the part of Ukraine which is in dispute.With the UK government taking a contradictory position in the respective cases.
You still going on bout NI !!! The fact is the issues in Ukraine are as near to those in Ireland as it gets with two opposing Russian loyalist v Ukrainian nationalist populations.With the difference that Russia seems to want to limit action taken to the part of Ukraine which is in dispute.With the UK government taking a contradictory position in the respective cases.
This doesn't look good at all. Russia isn't one to play by the rules, they've already lied their way into Crimea, and are stirring the st in Eastern Ukraine where they still maintain that they have no troops. The facts, though, speak for themselves.
All these Russian 'military exercises' near the Ukraine border have just been a cover for the delivery of thinly disguised Russian forces and supplies into Ukraine.
Putin never got the email about the cold war being over. You can take the man out of the KGB, but...
And Cameron has just warned that Russia could be a threat to NATO, and wants to see long term measures to strengthen our ability to respond quickly to any threat... This from the guy that wants to reduce our armed forces even further.
http://news.sky.com/story/1311910/pm-warns-nato-ru...
t in Eastern Ukraine where they still maintain that they have no troops. The facts, though, speak for themselves.All these Russian 'military exercises' near the Ukraine border have just been a cover for the delivery of thinly disguised Russian forces and supplies into Ukraine.
Putin never got the email about the cold war being over. You can take the man out of the KGB, but...
And Cameron has just warned that Russia could be a threat to NATO, and wants to see long term measures to strengthen our ability to respond quickly to any threat... This from the guy that wants to reduce our armed forces even further.
http://news.sky.com/story/1311910/pm-warns-nato-ru...
Cobnapint said:
All these Russian 'military exercises' near the Ukraine border have just been a cover for the delivery of thinly disguised Russian forces and supplies into Ukraine.
Possibly - but at very low levels. Moscow doesn't want a war in Ukraine - they've been pressing for a political solution for four months, and a settlement with damn few concessions - just enough to form a fig leaf that doesn't look like a defeat (because he already has the big prize, Crimea). So he feeds in just enough to make a military solution for Kiev unviable. Remember the early picture in the East was unarmed villagers trying to block the advance of Ukrainian armoured vehicles with their bodies.But 'we' do want a Ukrainian military victory and have encouraged Kiev to seek one. It therefore seems a bit rich to blame Putin for all the subsequent poor bloody victims, on all sides and none.
Cobnapint said:
And Cameron has just warned that Russia could be a threat to NATO, and wants to see long term measures to strengthen our ability to respond quickly to any threat... This from the guy that wants to reduce our armed forces even further.
http://news.sky.com/story/1311910/pm-warns-nato-ru...
Quick! Send for the close-air-support Harriers................ http://news.sky.com/story/1311910/pm-warns-nato-ru...
Octoposse said:
But 'we' do want a Ukrainian military victory and have encouraged Kiev to seek one. It therefore seems a bit rich to blame Putin for all the subsequent poor bloody victims, on all sides and none.
The fact is they are defending Ukraine from westward creeping Russian forces (oh sorry - friendly pitchfork wielding Russian speaking yokels who are just defending themselves against the evil child slaughtering Ukrainian army) under the orders of Putin who has the bit between his teeth after a walkover smash and grab in Crimea. A military victory is the only positive outcome available at the present time, because the chap with VP on his KGB issue pyjama case isn't listening to the vast ensemble of foreign leaders who have been constantly calling for him to respect Ukraine's internationally recognised boarders and to basically stop stirring the s
t. If he stopped sending his troops (that he says aren't there) over the border, stopped firing artillery in the same direction (which he say's he isn't) and stopped supplying miltary hardware to the rebels (ditto) then peace would reign.
Blame Putin? Naah.
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