Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
No one ever said that Russia isn't a potential adversary.
Good. They have a track record filled with horror, which the ex Soviet/WP countries and their populations were subjected to. This again brings us to the second part of my post, the fear and hate which is the biggest reason for these countries to join the EU and NATO.
XJ Flyer said:
It's obvious that the EU and NATO intend to move into Ukraine
It's mainly Ukraine who wants to get closer to the EU and NATO, for fear and simply for being pretty tired of being bullied by Soviet and later Russia. Most ex Soviet/WP countries have gone this route, it's easy enough to understand if you have spent time in any of the countries or with the people of these countries. They can tell you stories you wish you had never heard.As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
While if it's supposedly all about 'payback' that might explain at least some of why Germany went to war against Russia and it's then WW1 slavic allies in WW2.If we've learn't anything from those two wars it should be that we don't want a 3 rd for the same reasons.
XJ Flyer said:
The facts say that Ukraine is/would be just another in a long line of EU/NATO eastward expansion.With the difference that it would cross the line in the sand which Russia isn't prepared to allow.
As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
I'd say it it didn't 'Give' these country's away Look up the Singing Revolution and the Baltic way.Or maybe read a copy of Gulag.As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
Like finlandia said I'm sure many in these country's would have stories to tell about how 'kind' the Russians treated them.Or the lining up for simple things like bread or the need for care packages from the west to hospitals for basic medical supplies.So who can blame them if they want to be in the Nato/EU club?
So when is it 'worth it' to protect a fellow nato member? lets just say the Baltic's weren't in nato and russia rolled upto and over the German boarder? is it then worth it? just because they're a first world western European country? why should they stop there maybe it's only worth involvement when they get to Calais?
Maybe I'm bias as I'm part Latvian myself but joining the EU/nato is probably one of the best political decisions all the Baltic's and others have made.
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
No one ever said that Russia isn't a potential adversary.
Good. They have a track record filled with horror, which the ex Soviet/WP countries and their populations were subjected to. This again brings us to the second part of my post, the fear and hate which is the biggest reason for these countries to join the EU and NATO.
XJ Flyer said:
It's obvious that the EU and NATO intend to move into Ukraine
It's mainly Ukraine who wants to get closer to the EU and NATO, for fear and simply for being pretty tired of being bullied by Soviet and later Russia. Most ex Soviet/WP countries have gone this route, it's easy enough to understand if you have spent time in any of the countries or with the people of these countries. They can tell you stories you wish you had never heard.As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
While if it's supposedly all about 'payback' that might explain at least some of why Germany went to war against Russia and it's then WW1 slavic allies in WW2.If we've learn't anything from those two wars it should be that we don't want a 3 rd for the same reasons.
XJ Flyer said:
As I said there is a limit as to how far we should push east,thereby putting everyone at more risk of a major war,just to take in those who for whatever reason have 'issues' with Russia,just to make them feel better/stronger.Which in reality translates as slavic countries that for whatever reason want to get payback against Russia dragging us into their private fight.If that was good enough for NATO to maintain our defence during the Cold War then it's good enough now.
I've read that a couple of times but still have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.petrolsniffer said:
XJ Flyer said:
The facts say that Ukraine is/would be just another in a long line of EU/NATO eastward expansion.With the difference that it would cross the line in the sand which Russia isn't prepared to allow.
As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
I'd say it it didn't 'Give' these country's away Look up the Singing Revolution and the Baltic way.Or maybe read a copy of Gulag.As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
Like finlandia said I'm sure many in these country's would have stories to tell about how 'kind' the Russians treated them.Or the lining up for simple things like bread or the need for care packages from the west to hospitals for basic medical supplies.So who can blame them if they want to be in the Nato/EU club?
So when is it 'worth it' to protect a fellow nato member? lets just say the Baltic's weren't in nato and russia rolled upto and over the German boarder? is it then worth it? just because they're a first world western European country? why should they stop there maybe it's only worth involvement when they get to Calais?
Maybe I'm bias as I'm part Latvian myself but joining the EU/nato is probably one of the best political decisions all the Baltic's and others have made.
As for your final paragraph hopefully us in Western Europe won't have cause to regret the idea of us getting involved in Eastern Europe's private squabbles with their Russian neighbours.Sadly I think that we're on a more dangerous brink now in that regard than anything seen during the Cold War because of such a stupid EU and NATO policy of agreeing with you.As for me no I don't think it's worth risking western Europe for Eastern Europe just as it wasn't during the post WW2 years.The question is why the change in NATO policy.
How many more lines will be drawn in the sand before Vladimir Putin stops?
Putin's mind lives in a other world.Ex K.G.B. Spy who wants his people to be brainwashed in his believes.Angela Merkel knows him better than most .She stopped short of calling him a nutcase.We live in a dangerous world.
Putin's mind lives in a other world.Ex K.G.B. Spy who wants his people to be brainwashed in his believes.Angela Merkel knows him better than most .She stopped short of calling him a nutcase.We live in a dangerous world.
Foppo said:
How many more lines will be drawn in the sand before Vladimir Putin stops?
Putin's mind lives in a other world.Ex K.G.B. Spy who wants his people to be brainwashed in his believes.Angela Merkel knows him better than most .She stopped short of calling him a nutcase.We live in a dangerous world.
You're right Putin's mind,like mine,lives in the more stable safer world of the Cold War rather than the NATO expansionist one that we're in now.Putin's mind lives in a other world.Ex K.G.B. Spy who wants his people to be brainwashed in his believes.Angela Merkel knows him better than most .She stopped short of calling him a nutcase.We live in a dangerous world.
It isn't Putin who needs to do the stopping being that so far it has been all one way traffic of Russia withdrawing east and NATO then moving in.Obviously to the point where there was the real possibility of Crimea being NATO territory.What is really needed now is more old school Cold War thinking on both sides not less.Before NATO does something really stupid by removing Russia's power base from Putin and the Russian government and putting it into the hands of Russia's military leaders instead.
vonuber said:
petrolsniffer said:
Maybe I'm bias as I'm part Latvian myself but joining the EU/nato is probably one of the best political decisions all the Baltic's and others have made.
One of the few sensible posts amid all the drivel from XJ Flyer and chums.
t storm that those with your views are stirring up assuming you get your wish.XJ Flyer said:
vonuber said:
petrolsniffer said:
Maybe I'm bias as I'm part Latvian myself but joining the EU/nato is probably one of the best political decisions all the Baltic's and others have made.
One of the few sensible posts amid all the drivel from XJ Flyer and chums.t storm that those with your views are stirring up assuming you get your wish.Mojocvh said:
XJ Flyer said:
vonuber said:
petrolsniffer said:
Maybe I'm bias as I'm part Latvian myself but joining the EU/nato is probably one of the best political decisions all the Baltic's and others have made.
One of the few sensible posts amid all the drivel from XJ Flyer and chums.t storm that those with your views are stirring up assuming you get your wish.If you really think that sending in NATO/German forces to start rolling across Ukraine towards Russia will solve all the issues in the region I'm sure that the Ghost of Hitler will be providing 'moral' support.Assuming that is he's got the bottle to leave his bunker this time.
Finlandia said:
Read what I wrote again, it's mainly the ex Soviet/WP countries wanting to look west. They are afraid of the east. Rightfully so.
Quite true. They look East and see a hard faced bully, the Russian mafia, corruption, and a decline in freedom of expression and speech.I'm not saying Europe is perfect, but they look this way and see cash, a better standard of living, and something much closer to proper democracy and accountability.
Who would you prefer to be friends with?
tenpenceshort said:
XJ Flyer said:
You're right Putin's mind,like mine,lives in the more stable safer world of the Cold War rather than the NATO expansionist one that we're in now.
Serious question; are you utterly mental?He seems to be ignoring the simple fact that there are scores of millions of people in the formerly oppressed eastern bloc who detest Russia. The EU is not so much welcoming them, as they are desperately trying to turn away from the Kremlins influence. It does not really matter if the EU encourages them or not - there are many millions of people who reject Putin. This is his problem, not some EU/US hegemony.
Poles, Hungarians, Czechs etc would do anything to not go back to the old days.
Russia wouldnt have the problem of losing the old USSR if their neighbours didn't despise them.
Foppo said:
How many more lines will be drawn in the sand before Vladimir Putin stops?
Putin's mind lives in a other world.Ex K.G.B. Spy who wants his people to be brainwashed in his believes.Angela Merkel knows him better than most .She stopped short of calling him a nutcase.We live in a dangerous world.
That is the problem, sand shifts.....Putin's mind lives in a other world.Ex K.G.B. Spy who wants his people to be brainwashed in his believes.Angela Merkel knows him better than most .She stopped short of calling him a nutcase.We live in a dangerous world.
I think he lives in a corrupt world where gangs and factions and control and money (in billions) is king. I do not think the cold war applies anymore.
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
No one ever said that Russia isn't a potential adversary.
Good. They have a track record filled with horror, which the ex Soviet/WP countries and their populations were subjected to. This again brings us to the second part of my post, the fear and hate which is the biggest reason for these countries to join the EU and NATO.
XJ Flyer said:
It's obvious that the EU and NATO intend to move into Ukraine
It's mainly Ukraine who wants to get closer to the EU and NATO, for fear and simply for being pretty tired of being bullied by Soviet and later Russia. Most ex Soviet/WP countries have gone this route, it's easy enough to understand if you have spent time in any of the countries or with the people of these countries. They can tell you stories you wish you had never heard.As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
While if it's supposedly all about 'payback' that might explain at least some of why Germany went to war against Russia and it's then WW1 slavic allies in WW2.If we've learn't anything from those two wars it should be that we don't want a 3 rd for the same reasons.
How much time have you spent in Estonia for example? Have you talked with any Estonians about their "issues" with Soviet/Russia?
To me, it's obvious that you haven't.
Went on holiday to talinn a few years back; lovely place. There were some Russians in the same restaurant as us and we had been served and received our food from the estonian waitress before she even bothered to look at them.
I also had some amusement trying to find the Soviet war memorial in the centre until I realised it was the one they had dug up and dumped 20km away in a forest.
But nope, can't see why they would want to be closer to the eu at all (fascinating fact - Estonia in the early 20's tried to organise an early proto eu precisely because of russia).
I also had some amusement trying to find the Soviet war memorial in the centre until I realised it was the one they had dug up and dumped 20km away in a forest.
But nope, can't see why they would want to be closer to the eu at all (fascinating fact - Estonia in the early 20's tried to organise an early proto eu precisely because of russia).
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
No one ever said that Russia isn't a potential adversary.
Good. They have a track record filled with horror, which the ex Soviet/WP countries and their populations were subjected to. This again brings us to the second part of my post, the fear and hate which is the biggest reason for these countries to join the EU and NATO.
XJ Flyer said:
It's obvious that the EU and NATO intend to move into Ukraine
It's mainly Ukraine who wants to get closer to the EU and NATO, for fear and simply for being pretty tired of being bullied by Soviet and later Russia. Most ex Soviet/WP countries have gone this route, it's easy enough to understand if you have spent time in any of the countries or with the people of these countries. They can tell you stories you wish you had never heard.As I've said we've been here before at Yalta and Potsdam and the Cold War which followed it.In all cases we ( rightly ) decided that it wasn't worth the inevitable war which we couldn't win just to put Russia in it's place.The fact is Russia has since walked away from those historic 'issues' and given those people their lives and countries back.The last thing we should be doing is now supporting them in an attempt to get 'pay back' against Russia by moving NATO into old Soviet turf.Especially when that 'turf' happens to be disputed Russian territory itself in Ukraine.
As for the Cold War western Europe ( rightly ) decided that it's not worth taking ourselves out against Russia for eastern Europe and if/when push comes to shove nothing should have changed in that regard.No matter how much the EU propaganda tries to say otherwise.
While if it's supposedly all about 'payback' that might explain at least some of why Germany went to war against Russia and it's then WW1 slavic allies in WW2.If we've learn't anything from those two wars it should be that we don't want a 3 rd for the same reasons.
How much time have you spent in Estonia for example? Have you talked with any Estonians about their "issues" with Soviet/Russia?
To me, it's obvious that you haven't.
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