Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[Mojocvh]

"no evidence that Russia has any interests in moving back into those vacated areas."

OK. That's what you believe.

For the record I believe that Russia, led by Putin, will do whatever it thinks it can get away with.

[jmorgan]

It's Putin doing what he wants to stay in power. Don't think he gives a fig for NATO.

[anonymous-user]

Mojocvh said:

"no evidence that Russia has any interests in moving back into those vacated areas."

OK. That's what you believe.

For the record I believe that Russia, led by Putin, will do whatever it thinks it can get away with.

for a man worth personally 70 billion he will always have power in russia whatever position he is in.

[AreOut]

what method you used to calculate his wealth? I doubt he has more than a few millions under his name, but under his control he has much more than 70 billion.

[PRTVR]

Mojocvh said:

XJ Flyer said:

Mojocvh said:

"NATO doesn't start seeing sense by backing off from Russia's borders "

Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.

The Baltic states and Poland have direct borders with Russia.In addition to a border with Belarus assuming that Belarus is seen as part of the Russian Confederation and sphere of influence.

Which leaves the question of Ukraine assuming that Putin loses Eastern Ukraine to the nationalist pro EU forces.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 16th August 22:01

Right so you are saying that those Ex soviet/warpact states should just give up their hard earned freedom then.

Bonkers.

Let's look at this if things happened in a different way, lets imagine Russia was an economic powerhouse and the west in Europe was going down the pan, then one by one countries started to switch over to Russian, do you think we would be worried? Expansionism be it by military or economic means has the same effect, a change to the balance of power, if you corner a bear and poke it with a stick do not be supprised if it bites you.

[alfaman]

XJ Flyer said:

vonuber said:

XJ Flyer said:

The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45

So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?

You seem to be missing the fact that Russia actually moved out of those countries like Poland not in.

errr no .. Russia invaded most of eastern europe between WW2 and the 1960s and forced-in a communist dictator / puppet government... none of which was welcome by the countries in question ( including poland ).

Suggesting Russia has somehow done a good deed by vacating Poland ... is like suggesting a burglar or arsonist have done a good deed by leaving a building they have robbed / burnt.

Your proposition that it is somehow acceptable for massive Russian forces to mass on the border of a European country / threaten them / invade by proxy/ send in their own troops ..

.. yet it is unacceptable for the EU to try and protect the country, and that any EU intervention is 'wrong' .. is completely lop sided and quite frankly laughable

[DMN]

XJ Flyer said:

I'm saying that there's no evidence that Russia has any interests in moving back into those vacated areas.

Apart from the Russian Tanks now on Ukrainian soil you mean?

You are propper bonkers.

[anonymous-user]

AreOut said:

what method you

no method just respected news sources in the last 10 years.

he is around 20 billion minimum the rest is estimated as he is very sly about his wealth.

[MrCarPark]

PRTVR said:

Let's look at this if things happened in a different way, lets imagine Russia was an economic powerhouse and the west in Europe was going down the pan, then one by one countries started to switch over to Russian, do you think we would be worried?

If it was the overwhelming will of the people in those countries, then why should we be worried?

The people of Eastern Europe have democratically turned their backs on Russia. Why do so many in this thread denigrate this and give undue credit to the values and methods of the Russian state?

[Cobnapint]

DMN said:

XJ Flyer said:

I'm saying that there's no evidence that Russia has any interests in moving back into those vacated areas.

Apart from the Russian Tanks now on Ukrainian soil you mean?

You are propper bonkers.

+1

Putin could end all this sh*t right now by pulling back his highly trained 'separatists', with their missile launchers and tanks, back behind the boarder and live happily ever after in the thought that he's nabbed Crimea without firing a shot.

He chooses not to. And that is because he was hoping the same tactics would get him halfway across Ukraine - but on this occasion the Ukraine Army decided to fight back, and quite rightly too.

Trouble is, he's put himself in a bit of a corner. He's now caught up in an escalating war with another sovereign state (who's international boarders he had previously agreed to honour) that he really didn't need to start. Sanctions are biting, he's clamping down on all sources of criticism at home and he's losing the goodwill and friendship of the international community that had built up after the end of the cold-war.

[jmorgan]

The Spruce goose said:

AreOut said:

what method you

no method just respected news sources in the last 10 years.

he is around 20 billion minimum the rest is estimated as he is very sly about his wealth.

Also there was an article on R4 where he is quoted along the lines of telling his minions (the powerful ones) to not risk assists invested in the west unless they can afford to lose them. Where do the sanctions actually bite? I do not know.

[KareemK]

alfaman said:

Your proposition that it is somehow acceptable for massive Russian forces to mass on the border of a European country / threaten them / invade by proxy/ send in their own troops ..

And yet when the UK/US/The West do it elsewhere in the world then it's perfectly acceptable?

Korea
Vietnam
Cuba (by proxy)
Nicaragua (by proxy)
Afghanistan
Iraq

I think a lot of the 'upset' over this is that the Russians almost have the high moral ground

[skyrover]

KareemK said:

I think a lot of the 'upset' over this is that the Russians almost have the high moral ground

useful idiot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

[rich85uk]

Reports that the Russian rebels this morning have fired shells and many grad missiles at large refugee camps in Khriaschuvate and Novosvitlivka in Luhansk region, many have been killed.

Seems a bizarre thing to do as they were trying to win the Ukrainian people over but perhaps they are now getting desperate after losing ground. Whatever the reason it's a horrific thing to do and Putin has let this sink to an all time low

[KareemK]

skyrover said:

KareemK said:

I think a lot of the 'upset' over this is that the Russians almost have the high moral ground

useful idiot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

lickspittle

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lickspittle

[skyrover]

rich85uk said:

Reports that the Russian rebels this morning have fired shells and many grad missiles at large refugee camps in Khriaschuvate and Novosvitlivka in Luhansk region, many have been killed.

Seems a bizarre thing to do as they were trying to win the Ukrainian people over but perhaps they are now getting desperate after losing ground. Whatever the reason it's a horrific thing to do and Putin has let this sink to an all time low

Bomb civilians, blame Ukrainian military... request "peacekeepers", Russia happy to oblige.

[skyrover]

Ukraine plans to join the EU within 5 years and also NATO at some point.

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1385...

[irocfan]

alfaman said:

XJ Flyer said:

vonuber said:

XJ Flyer said:

The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45

So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?

You seem to be missing the fact that Russia actually moved out of those countries like Poland not in.

errr no .. Russia invaded most of eastern europe between WW2 and the 1960s and forced-in a communist dictator / puppet government... none of which was welcome by the countries in question ( including poland ).

Suggesting Russia has somehow done a good deed by vacating Poland ... is like suggesting a burglar or arsonist have done a good deed by leaving a building they have robbed / burnt.

Your proposition that it is somehow acceptable for massive Russian forces to mass on the border of a European country / threaten them / invade by proxy/ send in their own troops ..

.. yet it is unacceptable for the EU to try and protect the country, and that any EU intervention is 'wrong' .. is completely lop sided and quite frankly laughable

errrrmmmm the USSR was in all of Eastern Europe at the end of WWII... it may have consolidated its hold (see Czechosolvakia in the 60s and Hungary a decade earlier) but it was already there. As agreed and allowed by the US, UK & France.

[skyrover]

Separatists have gotten their hands on heavy BM-27 Uragan MLRS artillery





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-27_Uragan

[vonuber]

KareemK said:

I think a lot of the 'upset' over this is that the Russians almost have the high moral ground

I'm sorry but what the titty fking christ are you on about? You do know they are illegally occupying part of the Ukraine? You do know they shot down an airliner yes?

Madness.