Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[KareemK]

vonuber said:

KareemK said:

I think a lot of the 'upset' over this is that the Russians almost have the high moral ground

I'm sorry but what the titty fking christ are you on about? You do know they are illegally occupying part of the Ukraine? You do know they shot down an airliner yes?

Madness.

So the Russians shot down the airliner then? Yet YOU ask ME "what the titty fking christ are you on about?"

Wow, well done.

[XJ Flyer]

irocfan said:

alfaman said:

XJ Flyer said:

vonuber said:

XJ Flyer said:

The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45

So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?

You seem to be missing the fact that Russia actually moved out of those countries like Poland not in.

errr no .. Russia invaded most of eastern europe between WW2 and the 1960s and forced-in a communist dictator / puppet government... none of which was welcome by the countries in question ( including poland ).

Suggesting Russia has somehow done a good deed by vacating Poland ... is like suggesting a burglar or arsonist have done a good deed by leaving a building they have robbed / burnt.

Your proposition that it is somehow acceptable for massive Russian forces to mass on the border of a European country / threaten them / invade by proxy/ send in their own troops ..

.. yet it is unacceptable for the EU to try and protect the country, and that any EU intervention is 'wrong' .. is completely lop sided and quite frankly laughable

errrrmmmm the USSR was in all of Eastern Europe at the end of WWII... it may have consolidated its hold (see Czechosolvakia in the 60s and Hungary a decade earlier) but it was already there. As agreed and allowed by the US, UK & France.

Not forgetting the small matter of how that came about in the form of Germany invading Russia and wiping out around 20 million of it's population in the process.Often with the help of at least the two countries listed there.

As for it being 'agreed' the agreement in question was in reality the simple question of do we lose western Europe by starting WW3 or cut eastern Europe loose.

The problem in this case being that Russia decided to finally let the past go,by going back home while western and eastern Europe obviously isn't prepared to do the same,in the form of moving NATO in where Russia left.Exactly where is the so called 'goodwill' in that.Especially when the next stage in the process is in a region which Russia,with some justification,views as 'home'.

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

rich85uk said:

Reports that the Russian rebels this morning have fired shells and many grad missiles at large refugee camps in Khriaschuvate and Novosvitlivka in Luhansk region, many have been killed.

Seems a bizarre thing to do as they were trying to win the Ukrainian people over but perhaps they are now getting desperate after losing ground. Whatever the reason it's a horrific thing to do and Putin has let this sink to an all time low

Bomb civilians, blame Ukrainian military... request "peacekeepers", Russia happy to oblige.

Or just what the Ukrainian forces and their western backers would say as part of the propaganda war.

[skyrover]

We don't know for sure... but only one side has something to gain from civilian death's, and it's not the Ukrainians

[XJ Flyer]

MrCarPark said:

PRTVR said:

Let's look at this if things happened in a different way, lets imagine Russia was an economic powerhouse and the west in Europe was going down the pan, then one by one countries started to switch over to Russian, do you think we would be worried?

If it was the overwhelming will of the people in those countries, then why should we be worried?

The people of Eastern Europe have democratically turned their backs on Russia. Why do so many in this thread denigrate this and give undue credit to the values and methods of the Russian state?

Probably because at least some peple know that if we hadn't have followed that type of policy since the end of WW2 throughout the Cold War none of us would be here arguing about the situation now.There is a big difference between turning their backs on Russia as opposed to threatening it by moving NATO in based on past 'issues'.

[KareemK]

skyrover said:

We don't know for sure... but only one side has something to gain from civilian death's, and it's not the Ukrainians

Hmmm, so the separatists who are actually the people living in that part of Ukraine have something to gain from their Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters et all being killed?

Thats an excellent strategy for them.

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

We don't know for sure... but only one side has something to gain from civilian death's, and it's not the Ukrainians

Just as in the case of the shot down aircraft war always results in 'collateral damage'.Ukraine has every reason to shift the blame for such casualties onto the 'other side'.As for Russia wanting to deliberately wipe out civilians for an excuse to move in.It wouldn't need to being that Ukraine has already made documented attacks on towns causing civilian casualties in the Eastern Ukrainian ,so called 'rebel' areas,in question.The fact is if Putin wanted to invade Eastern Ukraine in a big way he would have done it long before now.Ironically the longer it goes on the more likely that is except by that point Putin will probably have been deposed in favour of letting Russia's military leadership get on with it.Assuming that isn't already the case now at least in the future direction of this brewing st storm.

[skyrover]

XJ Flyer said:

Just as in the case of the shot down aircraft war always results in 'collateral damage'.Ukraine has every reason to shift the blame for such casualties onto the 'other side'

Are you seriously suggesting that it was the Ukrainian armed forces who shot down MH17?

[skyrover]

KareemK said:

skyrover said:

We don't know for sure... but only one side has something to gain from civilian death's, and it's not the Ukrainians

Hmmm, so the separatists who are actually the people living in that part of Ukraine have something to gain from their Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters et all being killed?

Thats an excellent strategy for them.

Except they aren't Ukrainians for the most part... we both know that.

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

XJ Flyer said:

Just as in the case of the shot down aircraft war always results in 'collateral damage'.Ukraine has every reason to shift the blame for such casualties onto the 'other side'

Are you seriously suggesting that it was the Ukrainian armed forces who shot down MH17?

No.
I'm suggesting that the idea of blaming the Russian side for blowing up their own people,in order to provide Putin with a so called 'excuse',to do what he could have done anyway long ago 'if' he had intended to,would be even more ridiculous.

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

KareemK said:

skyrover said:

We don't know for sure... but only one side has something to gain from civilian death's, and it's not the Ukrainians

Hmmm, so the separatists who are actually the people living in that part of Ukraine have something to gain from their Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters et all being killed?

Thats an excellent strategy for them.

Except they aren't Ukrainians for the most part... we both know that.

The EU/NATO side propaganda seems to be trying to make the case that there is now no Russian loyalists in Eastern Ukraine and the whole country is united against Russia.The scary thing is that many people here actually believe it.

[KareemK]

XJ Flyer said:

skyrover said:

KareemK said:

skyrover said:

We don't know for sure... but only one side has something to gain from civilian death's, and it's not the Ukrainians

Hmmm, so the separatists who are actually the people living in that part of Ukraine have something to gain from their Mothers, Fathers, Brothers, Sisters et all being killed?

Thats an excellent strategy for them.

Except they aren't Ukrainians for the most part... we both know that.

The EU/NATO side propaganda seems to be trying to make the case that there is now no Russian loyalists in Eastern Ukraine and the whole country is united against Russia.The scary thing is that many people here actually believe it.

Similarly the people in Crimea don't want to be aligned with Russia, except for the small fact that they patently do.

[vonuber]

KareemK said:

So the Russians shot down the airliner then? Yet YOU ask ME "what the titty fking christ are you on about?"

Wow, well done.

Russian backed and trained 'separatists' with many Russians in their ranks used Russian equipment supplied by Russia along with training by Russia to shoot the plane down.

So yes.

[KareemK]

vonuber said:

KareemK said:

So the Russians shot down the airliner then? Yet YOU ask ME "what the titty fking christ are you on about?"

Wow, well done.

Russian backed and trained 'separatists' with many Russians in their ranks used Russian equipment supplied by Russia along with training by Russia to shoot the plane down.

So yes.

You're about the only person I've heard anywhere actually use that logic to arrive at the Russians being the murderers of the people on the plane.

US missiles fired from US equipment are used daily to fire into Gaza killing women and children. To use the systems the Israeli's will have had to be trained in its use by US military personnel or US company personnel.

Shall we extrapolate that to the US killing those children in the Gaza schools etc?

[vonuber]

KareemK said:

You're about the only person I've heard anywhere actually use that logic to arrive at the Russians being the murderers of the people on the plane.

US missiles fired from US equipment are used daily to fire into Gaza killing women and children. To use the systems the Israeli's will have had to be trained in its use by US military personnel or US company personnel.

Shall we extrapolate that to the US killing those children in the Gaza schools etc?

IF there were US military personnel on the ground involved in the fighting who were sent here by the US, then yes. But there isn't is there - but there ARE Russian military personnel in the Ukraine sent there by the Russian Government, some of whom were likely to be involved in shooting down the plane.

But you still haven't answered the question - how are Russia on the moral high ground exactly?

[AreOut]

vonuber said:

Russian backed and trained 'separatists' with many Russians in their ranks used Russian equipment supplied by Russia along with training by Russia to shoot the plane down.

So yes.

could be, but there are enough defectors from ukrainian army for this to be done only by them, we simply don't know that so it's just speculation

[KareemK]

vonuber said:

KareemK said:

You're about the only person I've heard anywhere actually use that logic to arrive at the Russians being the murderers of the people on the plane.

US missiles fired from US equipment are used daily to fire into Gaza killing women and children. To use the systems the Israeli's will have had to be trained in its use by US military personnel or US company personnel.

Shall we extrapolate that to the US killing those children in the Gaza schools etc?

IF there were US military personnel on the ground involved in the fighting who were sent here by the US, then yes. But there isn't is there - but there ARE Russian military personnel in the Ukraine sent there by the Russian Government, some of whom were likely to be involved in shooting down the plane.

But you still haven't answered the question - how are Russia on the moral high ground exactly?

First of all Russia having the moral high ground was a throw away line - you noticed the emoticon after it right? <--- there's another one.

Secondly the CIA and US military advisors are all over the world (as are UK ones) so please, don't tell me the US isn't or has never been involved in the instruction of weaponry in Israel or elsewhere, its what super-powers do - arm and instruct. The Russians have done it a lot less since the break up of the USSR but undoubtedly are active in eastern Ukraine.

[Mojocvh]

That's the trouble with Tribbles, they just keep on multiplying..

[skyrover]

Separatists introduce the Death Penalty

moscowtimes said:

In a sign that separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine are struggling with discord in the ranks, Donetsk separatists announced Monday they were setting up military tribunals and bringing in the death penalty.

The self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, or DNR, said it would bring in military tribunals with the right to pass the death sentence for a string of offences including treason, espionage, attempts on the lives of the leadership and sabotage.

The announcement, issued on the Donetsk's separatists website, quoted leading rebel officials as saying that other serious violations including looting would also be dealt with harshly.

"Introducing the death penalty is not revenge, it is the highest degree of social protection," a senior separatist leader, Vladimir Antyufeyev, was quoted as saying.

Reports of executions orchestrated by separatists in eastern Ukraine have, for months, been used as a propaganda tool by both sides in the Ukraine conflict, though none of the reports has been independently verified.

In one of the most high-profile incidents to date, a document surfaced in May purportedly showed one of the separatists' main leaders, Igor Strelkov, had ordered the executions of two DNR militants on charges of looting.

The document apparently showed Strelkov, a Russian citizen also known as Igor Girkin, had based the ruling on a 1941 Stalin-era law introducing capital punishment for theft of property.

A month later, in June, separatist leader Igor “The Imp” Bezler published a video showing two blindfolded Ukrainian army officers apparently being shot to death by a firing squad as a warning to Ukraine government forces. He later dismissed the video as fake.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/donetsk...

[rich85uk]

That's fking horrendous, I'm guessing that applies to everyone? Well goodbye captured Ukrainian soldiers then and I dread to think what they will do to the captured members of the far right sector