Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
KareemK said:
Munter said:
The Crack Fox said:
I wonder how Putin would explain that.
The same way KareemK will. Deny deny denyWake me up when they finally invade would you dear chap. You've been saying this for weeks.
As for the links and pictures, have you people never heard of propoganda? Jeez. When the US or UK intelligence say they're moving into Ukraine I'll believe it, not when some indeterminate footage is posted on You Tube.
All of these 'videos' and AND YET STILL NO INVASION.
vonuber said:
Well there we go. To no-one's surprise the 'aid' has crossed without inspection or observers at a rebel held checkpoint, despite Russian assurances to the contrary.
Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
Obviously even NATO and it's Ukrainian franchise doesn't seem to think that it's worth starting WW3 over the issue just yet.As for the EU supporters feel free to wipe the convoy out at will bearing in mind the impossibility of any Russian response.Owing to it's obvious military weakness going by the figures available on the interweb. Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 22 August 15:43
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 22 August 15:44
vonuber said:
Well there we go. To no-one's surprise the 'aid' has crossed without inspection or observers at a rebel held checkpoint, despite Russian assurances to the contrary.
Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
And yet Sky News say:Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
Ukraine has claimed more than 100 trucks from a Russian aid convoy have crossed into the country without permission in a "direct invasion".
It had been agreed the lorries would only be allowed into eastern Ukraine if they were escorted by the International Red Cross.
But the charity has pulled out after not receiving enough security guarantees as fighting continues to rage.
So what are the convoy to do? The Ukraine doesn't want the aid getting through and the Russians see their alms perishing in the trucks with needy people waiting for delivery.
Perhaps they should have air dropped them in? Oops, no,that would be an invasion of airspace and we know how sacrosanct the west treat airspace, until it suits them otherwise
As the Daily Telegraph says, the Russians simply got fed up waiting for the green light from Keiv.
KareemK said:
So what are the convoy to do? The Ukraine doesn't want the aid getting through and the Russians see their alms perishing in the trucks with needy people waiting for delivery.
Putin has played this, but what would be perishable? Not paying attention recently so wonder what is in them? On report had more fresh air that anything useful.KareemK said:
So what are the convoy to do? The Ukraine doesn't want the aid getting through
As the Daily Telegraph says, the Russians simply got fed up waiting for the green light from Keiv.
That's more or less the situation.Ukrainian nationalist forces and their EU supporters are simply trying to use siege tactics to neutralise the Russian influence in Eastern Ukraine.While Putin is trying to avoid turning the issue into all out war.Which leaves the question as to what happens next assuming that the Ukrainian nationalist side succeed. As the Daily Telegraph says, the Russians simply got fed up waiting for the green light from Keiv.
KareemK said:
vonuber said:
Well there we go. To no-one's surprise the 'aid' has crossed without inspection or observers at a rebel held checkpoint, despite Russian assurances to the contrary.
Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
And yet Sky News say:Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
Ukraine has claimed more than 100 trucks from a Russian aid convoy have crossed into the country without permission in a "direct invasion".
It had been agreed the lorries would only be allowed into eastern Ukraine if they were escorted by the International Red Cross.
But the charity has pulled out after not receiving enough security guarantees as fighting continues to rage.
So what are the convoy to do? The Ukraine doesn't want the aid getting through and the Russians see their alms perishing in the trucks with needy people waiting for delivery.
Perhaps they should have air dropped them in? Oops, no,that would be an invasion of airspace and we know how sacrosanct the west treat airspace, until it suits them otherwise
As the Daily Telegraph says, the Russians simply got fed up waiting for the green light from Keiv.
When it reaches Luhansk - Ukraine may decide to allow in the aid - without the accompanying rebels and arms.
The rebels will insist on sticking with the 'aid' ... Using the convoy as a Trojan horse back into Luhansk .
At which point there will be a military standoff - when the Ukrainians refuse or block the rebels and shooting starts ... Russia will say the 'aid convoy' was 'attacked without provocation' ....
Giving Russia an excuse to invade fully.
Which was the whole purpose of sending in the aid - to force / create a situation where they could send in the while army to 'protect the aid'
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
alfaman said:
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
And yet still no invasion.I don't know how you and the others on here are going to claim any credibility when it becomes apparent to you that you've all been getting your goolies in a tangle over something that didn't happen.
alfaman said:
KareemK said:
vonuber said:
Well there we go. To no-one's surprise the 'aid' has crossed without inspection or observers at a rebel held checkpoint, despite Russian assurances to the contrary.
Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
And yet Sky News say:Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
Ukraine has claimed more than 100 trucks from a Russian aid convoy have crossed into the country without permission in a "direct invasion".
It had been agreed the lorries would only be allowed into eastern Ukraine if they were escorted by the International Red Cross.
But the charity has pulled out after not receiving enough security guarantees as fighting continues to rage.
So what are the convoy to do? The Ukraine doesn't want the aid getting through and the Russians see their alms perishing in the trucks with needy people waiting for delivery.
Perhaps they should have air dropped them in? Oops, no,that would be an invasion of airspace and we know how sacrosanct the west treat airspace, until it suits them otherwise
As the Daily Telegraph says, the Russians simply got fed up waiting for the green light from Keiv.
When it reaches Luhansk - Ukraine may decide to allow in the aid - without the accompanying rebels and arms.
The rebels will insist on sticking with the 'aid' ... Using the convoy as a Trojan horse back into Luhansk .
At which point there will be a military standoff - when the Ukrainians refuse or block the rebels and shooting starts ... Russia will say the 'aid convoy' was 'attacked without provocation' ....
Giving Russia an excuse to invade fully.
Which was the whole purpose of sending in the aid - to force / create a situation where they could send in the while army to 'protect the aid'
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
It takes two to tango.
alfaman said:
KareemK said:
vonuber said:
Well there we go. To no-one's surprise the 'aid' has crossed without inspection or observers at a rebel held checkpoint, despite Russian assurances to the contrary.
Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
And yet Sky News say:Awaiting the kremlin apologists to arrive..
Ukraine has claimed more than 100 trucks from a Russian aid convoy have crossed into the country without permission in a "direct invasion".
It had been agreed the lorries would only be allowed into eastern Ukraine if they were escorted by the International Red Cross.
But the charity has pulled out after not receiving enough security guarantees as fighting continues to rage.
So what are the convoy to do? The Ukraine doesn't want the aid getting through and the Russians see their alms perishing in the trucks with needy people waiting for delivery.
Perhaps they should have air dropped them in? Oops, no,that would be an invasion of airspace and we know how sacrosanct the west treat airspace, until it suits them otherwise
As the Daily Telegraph says, the Russians simply got fed up waiting for the green light from Keiv.
When it reaches Luhansk - Ukraine may decide to allow in the aid - without the accompanying rebels and arms.
The rebels will insist on sticking with the 'aid' ... Using the convoy as a Trojan horse back into Luhansk .
At which point there will be a military standoff - when the Ukrainians refuse or block the rebels and shooting starts ... Russia will say the 'aid convoy' was 'attacked without provocation' ....
Giving Russia an excuse to invade fully.
Which was the whole purpose of sending in the aid - to force / create a situation where they could send in the while army to 'protect the aid'
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
While all the current signs are that Putin is looking for a way to keep his military leadership onside while minimising the action that he's willing to take to do it.Trust me this is an argument which we need Putin to win and be seen to win bearing in mind the potential risks of him being seen to be a loser.
I think a full military invasion from Russia is now fairly unlikely, never in a million years would I rule it out but the green light for Putin also gives NATO the green light to defend Ukraine under the Budapest memorandum :
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum...
It is also pretty obvious that one way or another, Russia is filtering in volunteers from Russia, Georgia, Chechnya, Armenia etc along with supplies to help fight with highly trained Russian separatists who are for arguments sake ex servicemen still full of combat knowledge to operate complex machinery like the BUK guided systems to take out 16 aircraft and take on a fairly large countries army including reserves and volunteers (admittedly a underpaid one and probably under skilled compared to the rebels)
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/eighteen-m...
Abit of a sneak at things on the Russian side, very close to the border:
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispa...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum...
It is also pretty obvious that one way or another, Russia is filtering in volunteers from Russia, Georgia, Chechnya, Armenia etc along with supplies to help fight with highly trained Russian separatists who are for arguments sake ex servicemen still full of combat knowledge to operate complex machinery like the BUK guided systems to take out 16 aircraft and take on a fairly large countries army including reserves and volunteers (admittedly a underpaid one and probably under skilled compared to the rebels)
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/eighteen-m...
Abit of a sneak at things on the Russian side, very close to the border:
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispa...
rich85uk said:
I think a full military invasion from Russia is now fairly unlikely, never in a million years would I rule it out but the green light for Putin also gives NATO the green light to defend Ukraine under the Budapest memorandum
If push comes to shove I'd guess that Russia's military leadership would at that point say that the agreement was in regards to Ukraine as a seperate state within the Russian sphere of influence not as a member,or potential member,of the EU let alone NATO.That is if such a military led government would even recognise any previous government agreement which in it's view now compromises Russia's national security.In which case it would then simply be a case of are the populations and armed forces of the NATO alliance as willing to risk their lives and areas,to keep Eastern Ukraine,as much as the Russian ones are.Make no mistake this argument has the potential to cause the type of s
t storm which we spent decades trying to avoid during the cold war and at that time succeeding. XJ Flyer said:
If push comes to shove I'd guess that Russia's military leadership would at that point say that the agreement was in regards to Ukraine as a seperate state within the Russian sphere of influence not as a member,or potential member,of the EU let alone NATO.That is if such a military led government would even recognise any previous government agreement which in it's view now compromises Russia's national security.In which case it would then simply be a case of are the populations and armed forces of the NATO alliance as willing to risk their lives and areas,to keep Eastern Ukraine,as much as the Russian ones are.Make no mistake this argument has the potential to cause the type of st storm which we spent decades trying to avoid during the cold war and at that time succeeding.
Yes yes that's all very well but what's it got to do with the Irish question?t storm which we spent decades trying to avoid during the cold war and at that time succeeding. 
KareemK said:
alfaman said:
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
And yet still no invasion.I don't know how you and the others on here are going to claim any credibility when it becomes apparent to you that you've all been getting your goolies in a tangle over something that didn't happen.
Now do I believe you or NATO? Hmmm...
(Reuters) - The United States demanded Moscow remove an aid convoy it sent into rebel-held eastern Ukraine without permission on Friday, accusing Russia of a flagrant violation of the sovereignty of its former Soviet neighbour and threatening more sanctions. Moscow, which has thousands of troops close to the Russian side of the border, warned against any attempt to "disrupt" the convoy, which it said was purely humanitarian; it did not say what action it might take if the Ukrainian military intervened.
NATO said Russian troops had been firing artillery across the border and within Ukraine in a major escalation of military support for pro-Moscow rebels since mid-August, a defacto charge that Russia was already waging war. White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said Washington planned to discuss the situation with the U.N. Security Council on Friday and that if the convoy was not pulled out, the Russians would face "additional costs".......
Russia said it was not breaching international law and that Russian President Vladimir Putin had told German Chancellor Angela Merkel in a telephone call Moscow had been unable to wait any longer for Kiev's green light to help people in distress. Merkel, who also spoke to Poroshenko, expressed her great concern, praising the Ukrainians for a "prudent" reaction and calling for a speedy ceasefire and shoring up of the frontier.........
A Reuters witness said the white-painted trucks had crossed onto Ukrainian soil and headed towards the rebel stronghold of Luhansk escorted by a small number of separatist fighters. The presence of the Russian trucks could force Ukrainian troops encircling Luhansk to rein in their offensive against the rebels there, because if they hit one of the Russian vehicles, that could give Moscow justification for a full-scale invasion......
"We warn against any attempts to disrupt this purely humanitarian mission," the Russian foreign ministry said. "Responsibility for any possible consequences of provocations ... will lie, completely and entirely, with those who are prepared to further sacrifice human lives for the sake of their ambitions and geo-political ploys."
The International Committee of the Red Cross, which both Moscow and Kiev had agreed should supervise the convoy, said it was not escorting it "due to the volatile security situation".
The entry of the trucks ran counter to the arrangement agreed with the ICRC and was a clear violation of the border, Sebastien Brabant, spokesman for the European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, said. NATO went a step further. "These developments are even more worrying as they coincide with a major escalation in Russian military involvement in eastern Ukraine since mid-August, including the use of Russian forces," Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said..
NATO said Russian troops had been firing artillery across the border and within Ukraine in a major escalation of military support for pro-Moscow rebels since mid-August, a defacto charge that Russia was already waging war. White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said Washington planned to discuss the situation with the U.N. Security Council on Friday and that if the convoy was not pulled out, the Russians would face "additional costs".......
Russia said it was not breaching international law and that Russian President Vladimir Putin had told German Chancellor Angela Merkel in a telephone call Moscow had been unable to wait any longer for Kiev's green light to help people in distress. Merkel, who also spoke to Poroshenko, expressed her great concern, praising the Ukrainians for a "prudent" reaction and calling for a speedy ceasefire and shoring up of the frontier.........
A Reuters witness said the white-painted trucks had crossed onto Ukrainian soil and headed towards the rebel stronghold of Luhansk escorted by a small number of separatist fighters. The presence of the Russian trucks could force Ukrainian troops encircling Luhansk to rein in their offensive against the rebels there, because if they hit one of the Russian vehicles, that could give Moscow justification for a full-scale invasion......
"We warn against any attempts to disrupt this purely humanitarian mission," the Russian foreign ministry said. "Responsibility for any possible consequences of provocations ... will lie, completely and entirely, with those who are prepared to further sacrifice human lives for the sake of their ambitions and geo-political ploys."
The International Committee of the Red Cross, which both Moscow and Kiev had agreed should supervise the convoy, said it was not escorting it "due to the volatile security situation".
The entry of the trucks ran counter to the arrangement agreed with the ICRC and was a clear violation of the border, Sebastien Brabant, spokesman for the European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, said. NATO went a step further. "These developments are even more worrying as they coincide with a major escalation in Russian military involvement in eastern Ukraine since mid-August, including the use of Russian forces," Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said..
Mojocvh said:
KareemK said:
alfaman said:
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
And yet still no invasion.I don't know how you and the others on here are going to claim any credibility when it becomes apparent to you that you've all been getting your goolies in a tangle over something that didn't happen.
Now do I believe you or NATO? Hmmm...
Hence Ukraine may back off Luhansk to prevent a much bigger invasion.
I think Kareem is living in "Alice in Kremlinland"
Mojocvh said:
KareemK said:
alfaman said:
Putin is copying the 'Hitler Play Book' of excuses for invasion
And yet still no invasion.I don't know how you and the others on here are going to claim any credibility when it becomes apparent to you that you've all been getting your goolies in a tangle over something that didn't happen.
Now do I believe you or NATO? Hmmm...
Hence Ukraine may back off Luhansk to prevent a much bigger invasion.
I think Kareem is living in "Alice in Kremlinland"
alfaman said:
Exactly - the Russians have already invaded ... The convoy is a manufactured pretext to give a thin veneer of a reason that is justifiable internally in Russia ... To either up the scale of invasion or implicitly threaten to increase the scale of invasion if any 'aid' vehicles are damaged if Ukrainian forces try and push back Russian troops escorting ( sheltered by) the convoy.
Hence Ukraine may back off Luhansk to prevent a much bigger invasion.
I think Kareem is living in "Alice in Kremlinland"
True. This is one hell of a cheeky move by Putin. This convoy is made up of Russian military vehicles that have come from a Russian military base. The fact that they've got make-up on is irrelevant.Hence Ukraine may back off Luhansk to prevent a much bigger invasion.
I think Kareem is living in "Alice in Kremlinland"
Even 'if' there are no weapon and ammo crates hidden deep within some of the loads (which I'm sure there will be), do you think the Russians would have allowed Hitler to send pretty white lorries to resupply (with food, water or otherwise) his forces on the Eastern front..? No, me neither.
If the first convoy goes through totally unchallenged, then you can bet there will be more.
Make no mistake, this is an invasion in disguise, in the same way that Crimea was taken using debadged Russian soldiers - or have some of you forgotten that bit already..?
Yeah... The war has clearly started. Russian and Ukrainian forces going at it with heavy artillery and troops engaged in battlefields across Ukraine. Oh, hand on.
When the war starts you'll all know it because it'll be over in 5 minutes.
I'll take one £20 wager the Russians don't formally invade Ukraine.
On another note I've just watched the White House National Security Advisor say on live TV that in their pursuit of "terrorists" they will not recognise national borders. Nice to be able to pick and choose when you will recognise sovereign borders and when you won't.
When the war starts you'll all know it because it'll be over in 5 minutes.
I'll take one £20 wager the Russians don't formally invade Ukraine.
On another note I've just watched the White House National Security Advisor say on live TV that in their pursuit of "terrorists" they will not recognise national borders. Nice to be able to pick and choose when you will recognise sovereign borders and when you won't.
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