Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[Cobnapint]

Munter said:

Ahh we're playing the pedant rules are we.

I'm sure people watching Russian soldiers outside their houses are ok with it so long as it's not formal.

Exactly What is he expecting Putin to do, get a Town Crier to stand in Red Square and read out an official declaration from a scroll to the waiting crowds?

He never announced the invasion of Crimea - he de-badged his armed forces, rode in, stuck his flag in the ground, then stuck his finger up to Ukraine and the West.

He's trying to do exactly the same in SE Ukraine. Funny how the 'seperatists' are doing so well there just a few days after the no arms in here gov 'humanitarian convoy' was in town.

Same old Russian politics, in the face of all the evidence, lie, lie, deny, lie, then deny a bit more. Seems KareemK is doing a bit of denying himself.

[XJ Flyer]

loafer123 said:

How is NATO supposed to compromise? It isn't involved.

Are you saying that Ukraine's democratically elected government should be bullied into withdrawing it's application to NATO?

No I'm saying that NATO should provide a categoric refusal of NATO entry and involvement in the case of at least Eastern Ukraine while recognising Russian interests in the region possibly to the point of partition.

As for the current situation are you seriously suggesting that NATO are not the ones who are pulling the strings of their Ukrainian nationalist puppets.You only need to see the news reports of the previous 24 hours to realise that the whole argument is about NATO eastward expansion and Russia calling enough.If NATO is not prepared to compromise in that regard there is probably no way that Putin will be able to hold off on and stall the demands of his military leadership for more serious action.In which case,as I've said,NATO will have at that point effectively kicked off the WW3 scenario which it managed to avoid during the 'Cold War'.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 29th August 15:41

[vonuber]

Kareem is making xj flyer seem reasonable and nuanced.

Anyway, it's notable how articles on it on the guardian etc are starting to be spammed massively by kremlin bots again. You can judge Russian intentions by their amount of spam - the more spam the more likely Russia is involved.

[loafer123]

XJ Flyer said:

loafer123 said:

How is NATO supposed to compromise? It isn't involved.

Are you saying that Ukraine's democratically elected government should be bullied into withdrawing it's application to NATO?

No I'm saying that NATO should provide a categoric refusal of NATO entry and involvement in the case of at least Eastern Ukraine while recognising Russian interests in the region possibly to the point of partition.

As for the current situation are you seriously suggesting that NATO are not the ones who are pulling the strings of their Ukrainian nationalist puppets.You only need to see the news reports of the previous 24 hours to realise that the whole argument is about NATO westward expansion and Russia calling enough.If NATO is not prepared to compromise in that regard there is probably no way that Putin will be able to hold off on and stall the demands of his military leadership for more serious action.In which case,as I've said,NATO will have at that point effectively kicked off the WW3 scenario which it managed to avoid during the 'Cold War'.

Maybe the answer is for Ukraine to be a member of NATO and therefore gain protection against aggressors, but for NATO and Russian to agree to a demilitarised zone in Eastern Ukraine and the Russian border territory so that Russia doesn't have NATO right on it's borders?

[XJ Flyer]

vonuber said:

Kareem is making xj flyer seem reasonable and nuanced.

Anyway, it's notable how articles on it on the guardian etc are starting to be spammed massively by kremlin bots again. You can judge Russian intentions by their amount of spam - the more spam the more likely Russia is involved.

Anyone with any sense knew 'Russian intentions' from the start.For those of us with that intelligence the only surprise is just how limited and restrained that Putin has ( so far ) managed to keep things in that regard.I'm guessing that NATO's recent posturing has now made his job more difficult.To the point of things now being on a knife edge concerning what happens next in the medium term between NATO and Russia.

[DMN]

KareemK said:

There has been no formal invasion of the Ukraine by Russian military full stop.

Q: When is an invasion not an invasion?


A: When the Tanks get lost looking for the sauna.

[Cobnapint]

I can't take that NATO bloke seriously. He reminds me of a puppet in Thunderbirds.

That is all.

[KareemK]

Munter said:

KareemK said:

There has been no formal invasion of the Ukraine

Ahh we're playing the pedant rules are we.

You don't know the difference do you.

Munter said:

I'm sure people watching Russian soldiers outside their houses are ok with it so long as it's not formal.

And of course they're OK with it, they're supporting the separatists. Keep up ffs.

[KareemK]

And Munters post above is the issue you all seem to be getting confused about.

The people of Eastern Ukraine WANT the Russians to intervene. The Ukrainian Govt are the enemy to them. Did you not see the crowds cheering the rebels when the captured Ukranian soldiers were paraded through the streets???

The calls of 'butchers' together with bottles raining down on them from streets packed 10 deep.

Let me draw you an analogy, think 'Falklands' but 10's of thousands more people.

Is it the case that some of you are seeing this as 'whatever the west does is right and just' regardless of how hypocritical that is?

[Mermaid]

KareemK said:

The people of Eastern Ukraine WANT the Russians to intervene. The Ukrainian Govt are the enemy to them. Did you not see the crowds cheering the rebels when the captured Ukranian soldiers were paraded through the streets???

Is it the case that some of you are seeing this as 'whatever the west does is right and just' regardless of how hypocritical that is?

If Russia was flavour of the month with the US, the "freedom fighters" who wish to repel oppression from Kiev would be hailed as heroes.

Agree with Kareem, hypocrisy abounds.

[skyrover]

KareemK said:

The people of Eastern Ukraine WANT the Russians to intervene. The Ukrainian Govt are the enemy to them. Did you not see the crowds cheering the rebels when the captured Ukranian soldiers were paraded through the streets???

Let me re-phrase that for you.

SOME of the people in East Ukraine want the Russian's to intervene... the vast majority DO NOT

Here's a picture from today showing residents of border city Mariupol helping the Ukraine army dig defensive positions against the advancing Russian troops

[KareemK]

skyrover said:

SOME of the people in East Ukraine want the Russian's to intervene... the vast majority DO NOT

There's that agenda again and this is where you let yourself down.

Whats your issue with all of this and your connection? You do far more lengthy posts than any other pro-NATO anti-Russian poster on here and trawl the internet for links from Western papers, diplomats etc much more than any normal poster would.

Did the Russian revolution rob your family of land or something?

[skyrover]

KareemK said:

There's that agenda again and this is where you let yourself down.

Whats your issue with all of this and your connection? You do far more lengthy posts than any other pro-NATO anti-Russian poster on here and trawl the internet for links from Western papers, diplomats etc much more than any normal poster would.

Did the Russian revolution rob your family of land or something?

This thread is not about me

I collate the information from several sources to try and keep on top of current events. When the evidence is so overwhelming it's hard to appear neutral.

A few more pics from Mariupol. The local's are preparing for conflict.

[KareemK]

If you want to know who's side the 'people' are on this ought to help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4S10oDo0s

[Munter]

KareemK said:

Munter said:

KareemK said:

There has been no formal invasion of the Ukraine

Ahh we're playing the pedant rules are we.

You don't know the difference do you.

Do you understand the word parrot?

[KareemK]

skyrover said:

This thread is not about me

Oh but it is really. Nobody goes to the lengths you do without it being "about them".

As if by magic:

skyrover said:

I collate the information from several sources to try and keep on top of current events.

And it's not 'information' only is it Don't forget the ramblings of your brothers aunties farmer-boyfriends cousin.

Way to much stuff going on in your head me'thinks.

Edited by KareemK on Friday 29th August 17:34

[vonuber]

KareemK said:

Oh but it is really. Nobody goes to the lengths you do without it being "about them".

I suspect you are responsible for most of the pro-Russian posts in this thread; is it all about you then?

[rich85uk]

KareemK said:

If you want to know who's side the 'people' are on this ought to help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4S10oDo0s

That was a horrendous thing for the rebels to do and the sweepers at the end liking them to the nazis is pure humiliation for Ukraine as a country but you are right some people in Eastern Ukraine are pro Russia, some may have been converted that way after the high civilian death toll and the rebels convincing them it was the Ukrainian army. It's fair to say both sides have shelled civilians during the war so far, but I think what is the most shocking thing is the way Putin feels taking land by force with no vote, elections etc is the only way this will work. For something that is happening in Europe in 2014 it's pretty barbaric

[vonuber]

KareemK said:

If you want to know who's side the 'people' are on this ought to help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4S10oDo0s

Ah, the side that shot down an airliner? Nice bunch then.

[KareemK]

vonuber said:

KareemK said:

Oh but it is really. Nobody goes to the lengths you do without it being "about them".

I suspect you are responsible for most of the pro-Russian posts in this thread; is it all about you then?

It's called 'balance', not that I'd expect an understanding of that.

Right, I'm off for the weekend, see you chaps back here on Monday

Edited by KareemK on Friday 29th August 17:52