Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[scherzkeks]

Munter said:

So Ukraine is happy with it's relationship with Russia? I suspect not...

Could you be any more vague?

[Cobnapint]

Munter said:

Nobody is there to "get at" anybody. All the west wants is a stable trading partner. If Russia want the same thing all they need to do is stop smacking Ukraine around, get back inside their own border and make themselves look attractive, rather than playing the hard man (or tosser as it's otherwise known)

^^ Yep.

But don't you mean 'lying tosser'. I've lost count the number of times Putin has announced that he's pulling his troops back from the Ukrainian border, or 'we're just conducting exercises', or that they were never there in the first place, or that the Ukraine army are attacking Russian villages, or none of his troops are in Ukraine at all(except for all the ones that are lost or on holiday).

He wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit him in the face. He's lying his way into restoring the south eastern part of Ukraine to Novorossiya (new Russia), so he can have land access to his Black Sea fleet in the recently stolen Crimea. And everybody knows it.

[Cobnapint]

hidetheelephants said:

AreOut said:

I understand some people hate him but does he really look paranoic to you?

Increasingly yes; he's surrounded himself with yes men who won't contradict him, this is not the act of a rational human being.

It's not about hating him, it's about recognizing what a dangerous little ex-KGB action man he is.

Along with putting the fear of god into anyone in the Kremlin that dare challenge him, he's recently clamped down on press freedoms and social media outlets across Russia.

And remember before that he held two girls in custody for 4 months, then sentenced them for two years for singing an anti-Putin protest song in a church FFS.

He's quickly turning himself into an old school Soviet dictator.

Apart from that, he's just fine.

[XJ Flyer]

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

[XJ Flyer]

Cobnapint said:

Munter said:

Nobody is there to "get at" anybody. All the west wants is a stable trading partner. If Russia want the same thing all they need to do is stop smacking Ukraine around, get back inside their own border and make themselves look attractive, rather than playing the hard man (or tosser as it's otherwise known)

^^ Yep.

But don't you mean 'lying tosser'. I've lost count the number of times Putin has announced that he's pulling his troops back from the Ukrainian border, or 'we're just conducting exercises', or that they were never there in the first place, or that the Ukraine army are attacking Russian villages, or none of his troops are in Ukraine at all(except for all the ones that are lost or on holiday).

He wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit him in the face. He's lying his way into restoring the south eastern part of Ukraine to Novorossiya (new Russia), so he can have land access to his Black Sea fleet in the recently stolen Crimea. And everybody knows it.

So you're saying lets' go to war with Russia because Russia has,in your view,'stolen' Crimea.Which says everything about how western propaganda has stoked up the anti Russian agenda to the point where WW3 is inevitable.In what would seem,to those like Kennedy,as the most unbelievable circumstances possible If they were still around to see it.

As for Putin he is just a figurehead and a representative of his military leadership's policy.Which will become increasingly clearer as time goes on and especially assuming the bat st crazy idea that Russia should be kicked out of Crimea goes on.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 1st September 17:01

[Munter]

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

So you see someone you are friendly with being beaten up in the street. He sees you passing and asks you to fetch help.

Your response is "Nah that lads a bit scary, never talk to me again".

Nice.

[Cobnapint]

XJ Flyer said:

Cobnapint said:

Munter said:

Nobody is there to "get at" anybody. All the west wants is a stable trading partner. If Russia want the same thing all they need to do is stop smacking Ukraine around, get back inside their own border and make themselves look attractive, rather than playing the hard man (or tosser as it's otherwise known)

^^ Yep.

But don't you mean 'lying tosser'. I've lost count the number of times Putin has announced that he's pulling his troops back from the Ukrainian border, or 'we're just conducting exercises', or that they were never there in the first place, or that the Ukraine army are attacking Russian villages, or none of his troops are in Ukraine at all(except for all the ones that are lost or on holiday).

He wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit him in the face. He's lying his way into restoring the south eastern part of Ukraine to Novorossiya (new Russia), so he can have land access to his Black Sea fleet in the recently stolen Crimea. And everybody knows it.

So you're saying lets' go to war with Russia because Russia has,in your view 'stolen' Crimea.Which says everything about how western propaganda has stoked up the anti Russian agenda to the point where WW3 is inevitable in what would seem to those like Kennedy as the most unbelievable circumstances possible.If they were still around to see it.

As for Putin he is just a figurehead and a representative of his military leadership's policy.Which will become increasingly clearer as time goes on and especially assuming the bat st crazy idea that Russia should be kicked out of Crimea goes on.

Erm, no, I'm not saying lets go to war with Russia. Do you work for the Kremlin's Ministry of Truth or something?

Or was that just an excuse to feed your 'WW3' habit..?

[XJ Flyer]

Munter said:

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

So you see someone you are friendly with being beaten up in the street. He sees you passing and asks you to fetch help.

Your response is "Nah that lads a bit scary, never talk to me again".

Nice.

No I see a drunk who I don't know picking a pointless knife fight with an American redneck who's armed to the teeth with a pump action shotgun.I stay well out of it.Especially when the copper across the road armed with the same is laughing and saying sort it out amongst yourselves while at the same time telling the drunk to go for it.

[Munter]

XJ Flyer said:

No I see a drunk who I don't know picking a pointless knife fight with an American redneck who's armed to the teeth with a pump action shotgun.I stay well out of it.Especially when the copper across the road armed with the same is laughing and saying sort it out amongst yourselves while at the same time telling the drunk to go for it.

Did I ask what you see? The irony is back...

[toppstuff]

Munter said:

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

So you see someone you are friendly with being beaten up in the street. He sees you passing and asks you to fetch help.

Your response is "Nah that lads a bit scary, never talk to me again".

Nice.

XJ really is bat-st crazy. Completely hatstand. I've rarely encountered such a combination of bizarre perspective on the world coupled with an unerring, committed, relentless quest to assert that perspective on anyone who is within reach..

Anyway. The big issue here which XJ seems to forget, is that he is so obsessed with Russia and NATO that he pays absolutely ZERO attention to the victim. He is the guy worrying about the rapist while ignoring the victim.

It is really simple. Ukraine is simply trying to take a path that every other ex-Soviet country has already taken. These countries all want to be free of the tyranny of the Russians and live their own lives.

NATO and the EU is the green and pleasant land over in the distance. It is not the EU's fault that they are a vastly more attractive partner than the Russians are. It is not the EU's fault that Russia has been abusing its neighbours for generations.

If Russia had not abused its neighbours over the last 7 decades, their neighbours wouldn't want to turn their back to them.

Russia has become the same bourgeois-led corrupt state that it was almost precisely 100 years ago. Once again a ruling elite has stolen everything and draped the country in nationalist fervour to deceive their public. It ended badly a hundred years ago. It will end badly again. These games are simply Putin playing a game of "oh look at that!!" with his people to distract them from the st state their country is in.

[Blib]

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

So, to paraphrase.

"No Blib, NATO is not forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards."

[toppstuff]

Blib said:

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

So, to paraphrase.

"No Blib, NATO is not forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards."

Ukraine has had enough of eating turnips and being crapped on by the Kremlin. Russia's buddies in Ukraine have pretty much stolen everything they had.

They look at Poland and Hungary and they have Audi's and Costco and tourism. Heck, Hungary even makes Audis these days. All Ukraine has is a pipeline that appears to exist to make Putin as rich as Croesus, at their expense. They've got no money, most of them are still in stonewashed denim and spending a decades wages to buy a Dacia Sandero. They have had enough.

Given that most of the other ex Soviet Countries have been been through the same process, and are now living it up on EU infrastructure grants, shiny new car factories and Easyjet flights to every major capital, it is hardly surprising that Ukraine wants the same thing.

It is not the EU's fault for offering a stable and secure environment for its citizens. It is Russias fault for failing to offer the same thing.

[XJ Flyer]

Cobnapint said:

Erm, no, I'm not saying lets go to war with Russia. Do you work for the Kremlin's Ministry of Truth or something?

Or was that just an excuse to feed your 'WW3' habit..?

So the idea is to move NATO's conventional capability eastwards up to Russia's borders and kick Russia out of Crimea but do it in a way that won't involve war.Sounds like another one of George Bush's great ideas.As for me no as I've said I like Kennedy's ideas on defensive strategy for 'the West'.

[Mojocvh]

Finland next in line for the treatment??

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&a...

http://barentsobserver.com/en/security/2014/09/fin...

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

XJ really is bat-st crazy. Completely hatstand. I've rarely encountered such a combination of bizarre perspective on the world coupled with an unerring, committed, relentless quest to assert that perspective on anyone who is within reach..

Anyway. The big issue here which XJ seems to forget, is that he is so obsessed with Russia and NATO that he pays absolutely ZERO attention to the victim. He is the guy worrying about the rapist while ignoring the victim.

It is really simple. Ukraine is simply trying to take a path that every other ex-Soviet country has already taken. These countries all want to be free of the tyranny of the Russians and live their own lives.

NATO and the EU is the green and pleasant land over in the distance. It is not the EU's fault that they are a vastly more attractive partner than the Russians are. It is not the EU's fault that Russia has been abusing its neighbours for generations.

If Russia had not abused its neighbours over the last 7 decades, their neighbours wouldn't want to turn their back to them.

Russia has become the same bourgeois-led corrupt state that it was almost precisely 100 years ago. Once again a ruling elite has stolen everything and draped the country in nationalist fervour to deceive their public. It ended badly a hundred years ago. It will end badly again. These games are simply Putin playing a game of "oh look at that!!" with his people to distract them from the st state their country is in.

Yet more NATO propaganda.The reality is that the EU is using our money to bribe the ex eastern bloc/soviet states and take advantage of historic local animosities to allow the eastward expansion of NATO up to Russia's borders where it can pose a conventional threat to Russia.All because America thinks that doing so is a better idea than a defence policy based on mutually assured destruction.The bit that America has forgot being that Russia isn't going to go along with the American script.

As for the state that Russia was in 100 years ago ironically if only our government had gone along with that idea by supporting Germany instead of allying itself with Russia at the time.

The fact is Russia has always been a problem neighbour regardless of the type of regime.However it is a major nuclear player since at least the 1960's which takes a different defence strategy than that of 1914.

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

Yet more NATO propaganda.The reality is that the EU is using our money to bribe the ex eastern bloc/soviet states and take advantage of historic local animosities to allow the eastward expansion of NATO up to Russia's borders where it can pose a conventional threat to Russia.All because America thinks that doing so is a better idea than a defence policy based on mutually assured destruction.The bit that America has forgot being that Russia isn't going to go along with the American script.

As for the state that Russia was in 100 years ago ironically if only our government had gone along with that idea by supporting Germany instead of allying itself with Russia at the time.

The fact is Russia has always been a problem neighbour regardless of the type of regime.However it is a major nuclear player since at least the 1960's which takes a different defence strategy than that of 1914.

Jeepers. I am lost for words.

Damn the EU for creating a stable democracy with a high standard of living that people aspire to be a part of. Damn them to hell.

And damn the Ukrainians for being fed up with being poor while their neighbours have prospered. Damn them for daring to dislike being robbed for the past 4 generations by Russia. Rather than want an end to it, by your logic they should be grateful, shut up and just put up with Russian hegemony.

You crazy little man. You are a Russian internet plant. They've got to be paying you for this BS. .

[Mojocvh]

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

Could you just reaffirm your point, highlighted in BOLD, for us again...now I might be wrong [but I'm not] but pouring "russian" people into an area is hardly an act of neutrality, ask The Finns if you need that explained further.

Oh and cut the WW3 burnt to a crisp crap, it doesn't impress anyone.

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

XJ Flyer said:

Yet more NATO propaganda.The reality is that the EU is using our money to bribe the ex eastern bloc/soviet states and take advantage of historic local animosities to allow the eastward expansion of NATO up to Russia's borders where it can pose a conventional threat to Russia.All because America thinks that doing so is a better idea than a defence policy based on mutually assured destruction.The bit that America has forgot being that Russia isn't going to go along with the American script.

As for the state that Russia was in 100 years ago ironically if only our government had gone along with that idea by supporting Germany instead of allying itself with Russia at the time.

The fact is Russia has always been a problem neighbour regardless of the type of regime.However it is a major nuclear player since at least the 1960's which takes a different defence strategy than that of 1914.

Jeepers. I am lost for words.

Damn the EU for creating a stable democracy with a high standard of living that people aspire to be a part of. Damn them to hell.

And damn the Ukrainians for being fed up with being poor while their neighbours have prospered. Damn them for daring to dislike being robbed for the past 4 generations by Russia. Rather than want an end to it, by your logic they should be grateful, shut up and just put up with Russian hegemony.

You crazy little man. You are a Russian internet plant. They've got to be paying you for this BS. .

If you'd have said damn the EU for giving our wealth away to eastern Europe and opening up our labour markets to east European labour,all to get it onside as part of Bush's plan to change the west's defence policy,you'd be right.

I'm guessing that there's no place for the UKIP anti federalist EU view concerning the situation.

[XJ Flyer]

Mojocvh said:

XJ Flyer said:

Blib said:

Is NATO forcing independent nations to join in its inexorable 'march' Eastwards?

The point is NATO being an opposing force to Russia and an organisation that Russia's military views as a threat, moving into areas that Russia has moved out of.When it is obvious that those areas needed to remain neutral.Thereby removing the potential 'threat' from Russia's point of view.

Bearing in mind that from the point of view of avoiding WW3 we need to see it from the opponent's point of view not the same old one sided blinkered Russia bad NATO good propaganda that is doing nothing but fooling ourselves.

Could you just reaffirm your point, highlighted in BOLD, for us again...now I might be wrong [but I'm not] but pouring "russian" people into an area is hardly an act of neutrality, ask The Finns if you need that explained further.

Oh and cut the WW3 burnt to a crisp crap, it doesn't impress anyone.

Neutral meaning no need to move NATO into areas that Russia moved out of.Assuming the Cold War was supposedly over and it is supposedly only now Putin who is the problem since that time,then why the need for eastward NATO expansion under Yeltsin's administration.

As for thinking that Russia is bluffing about the nuclear option 'if' NATO doesn't start seeing sense that's your choice.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 1st September 19:00

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

If you'd have said damn the EU for giving our wealth away to eastern Europe and opening up our labour markets to east European labour,all to get it onside as part of Bush's plan to change the west's defence policy,you'd be right.

I'm guessing that there's no place for the UKIP anti federalist EU view concerning the situation.

Wrong wrong wrong. Olympic levels of wrongness.

The EU expanded simply because the USSR collapsed. It left a vacuum. The USSR was a drunk in the ditch that couldn't even get off the floor, lying in its own piss. Nothing worked. No-one was getting paid.
The USSR totally and completely failed. Ceased to function. It left a vacuum and it was powerless to stop its old oppressed countries from getting on with a better life.

It is only now that Russia has money from oil that it is getting pissy about things. Well its too late. Everyone hates them and they have moved on.

The EU didn't need to tempt them. The USSR failed and left a vacuum.