Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
Jimbeaux said:
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Why would they need 'security from Russia'
Can I ask you a serious question, do you have any idea of what life was like in the Soviet states like Ukraine and the Baltic countries? M
All over a matter which could have been negotiated as part of the new Cold War environment which NATO's bad faith has caused in the relationship between the west and Russia.
IE there's no way that Russia was ever going to allow Eastern Ukraine to become a part of NATO.Which just left the choice of negotiate or mutually assured destruction when the argument inevitably turned nuclear.
Clueless- complete failure to understand that Russia behaved towards Eastern European nations like a bullying thuggish drunk molesting uncle - who thought he had a right to the Eastern European countries as they were 'family'.
No wonder they want to be part of the EU.
NATO have no expansionist agenda - more that these former USSR victims are turning to the freedom of Europe rather than oppression of Russia.
I have worked in Eastern Europe - not exactly much love towards Russia - now or ever
alfaman said:
Jimbeaux said:
XJ Flyer said:
Finlandia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Why would they need 'security from Russia'
Can I ask you a serious question, do you have any idea of what life was like in the Soviet states like Ukraine and the Baltic countries? M
All over a matter which could have been negotiated as part of the new Cold War environment which NATO's bad faith has caused in the relationship between the west and Russia.
IE there's no way that Russia was ever going to allow Eastern Ukraine to become a part of NATO.Which just left the choice of negotiate or mutually assured destruction when the argument inevitably turned nuclear.
Clueless- complete failure to understand that Russia behaved towards Eastern European nations like a bullying thuggish drunk molesting uncle - who thought he had a right to the Eastern European countries as they were 'family'.
No wonder they want to be part of the EU.
NATO have no expansionist agenda - more that these former USSR victims are turning to the freedom of Europe rather than oppression of Russia.
I have worked in Eastern Europe - not exactly much love towards Russia - now or ever
So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
Finlandia said:
... do you have any idea of what life was like in the Soviet states like Ukraine and the Baltic countries?
It's interesting that many residents of Ukraine (who would know more about this than you) seem to view things differently? There was a referendum you know, and let us not forget that the technically illegitimate interim Ukrainian govt. has fired into civilian areas in Eastern Ukraine.http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguide...
You'd think they'd be more mindful regarding wanton destruction and killing of innocent civilian -- particularly those who, by your account, support them.
Also, in case you hadn't heard, the Soviet Union no longer exists.
scherzkeks said:
Finlandia said:
... do you have any idea of what life was like in the Soviet states like Ukraine and the Baltic countries?
It's interesting that many residents of Ukraine (who would know more about this than you) seem to view things differently? There was a referendum you know, and let us not forget that the technically illegitimate interim Ukrainian govt. has fired into civilian areas in Eastern Ukraine.http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguide...
You'd think they'd be more mindful regarding wanton destruction and killing of innocent civilian -- particularly those who, by your account, support them.
Also, in case you hadn't heard, the Soviet Union no longer exists.
Have you spent any time in a former Soviet or WP state, or even a country with a border to Russia?
XJ Flyer said:
Which is more or less how Russia still regards 'the west' and NATO since the small matter of WW2.
So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
Don't worry petal - there ain't gonna be a nuclear war ..So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
You are being obtuse (again)...
It is simple : Russia invaded a sovereign state - in breach of the treaty it signed with NATO.
Ukrainians want to be part of the EU ... Russia felt insulted ( well boo hoo... ).
By your logic if one bully-boy state invades another to expand its borders we should just appease them in case they get twitchy with nuclear weapons.
Pathetic
alfaman said:
XJ Flyer said:
Which is more or less how Russia still regards 'the west' and NATO since the small matter of WW2.
So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
Don't worry petal - there ain't gonna be a nuclear war ..So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
You are being obtuse (again)...
It is simple : Russia invaded a sovereign state - in breach of the treaty it signed with NATO.
Ukrainians want to be part of the EU ... Russia felt insulted ( well boo hoo... ).
By your logic if one bully-boy state invades another to expand its borders we should just appease them in case they get twitchy with nuclear weapons.
Pathetic
XJ - why does the notion of self determination and a desire to escape Russian oppression mean absolutely nothing to you? Are you some kind of shill on the RT payroll or something?
Finlandia said:
You are aware of the politics of the communist Kremlin, to forcefully move native people, or simply kill them, and that Russians repopulated the satellite states?
Have you spent any time in a former Soviet or WP state, or even a country with a border to Russia?
The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)Have you spent any time in a former Soviet or WP state, or even a country with a border to Russia?
I assume that monetary and material support for a violent coup of a democratically elected president also fits under this category of acceptability for you (based on the logic in your post)?
scherzkeks said:
I assume that monetary and material support for a violent coup of a democratically elected president also fits under this category of acceptability for you (based on the logic in your post)?
Violent coup? The Ukrainian parliament legally voted to remove him from power after he fled to Russia.If I remember correctly it was his armed guard who were shooting the protesters.
scherzkeks said:
The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)
I assume that monetary and material support for a violent coup of a democratically elected president also fits under this category of acceptability for you (based on the logic in your post)?
What nonsense.I assume that monetary and material support for a violent coup of a democratically elected president also fits under this category of acceptability for you (based on the logic in your post)?
1. This is a war. Ukraine may or may not have hit eastern population centres. But it is also clear that Russia has also been indiscriminately killing people. Why do you choose to be selective and criticise only Ukraine, when Russia is just as guilty?
2. The former eastern bloc countries have suffered decades of cruelty and oppression under the Russians. That cannot be easily forgotten. In the case of Ukraine, they see a country like Poland ( once of a similar sized economy to them ) which is now relatively rich and with improving lives for its people, while Ukraine has suffered just continued exploitation from Russia. Ukrainians are simply poorer and lack the same opportunities other countries like Poland and Hungary now enjoy.
Ethnic Russians feel aligned to Russia. I can understand that. Everyone else who is not ethnic Russian can see past the patriotism of "mother Russia" and just want to escape their oppression.
It is not the EU's fault that the citizens of western Europe are wealthier, have more freedom and more opportunity. It is Russia's fault for failing to stop oppressing their neighbours and allowing them to grow.
Personally, I think the earlier that Ukraine is divided, so that the ethnic Russians can go join Mother Russia and disappear, the better. Non Russian Ukrainians can then concentrate on building lives for themselves much better than they could ever achieve when under the oppression of Moscow.
scherzkeks said:
I assume that monetary and material support for a violent coup of a democratically elected president also fits under this category of acceptability for you (based on the logic in your post)?
Just because a president is democratically elected at the time does not excuse his actions in office.Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
From what i have read it was the refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement that triggered the protests; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.
skyrover said:
Violent coup? The Ukrainian parliament legally voted to remove him from power after he fled to Russia.
And why did he flee? See the first clause in your sentence.skyrover said:
If I remember correctly it was his armed guard who were shooting the protesters.
If I remember correctly, there is a tapped phone conversation with Estonia's foreign minister suggesting that the snipers were hired by opposition leaders.scherzkeks said:
toppstuff said:
What nonsense.
I agree, most of your post was nonsense. Poland and Ukraine have similar populations.
When the USSR collapsed, Ukraine was the second largest economy after Russia.
So where are they now in 2012-2014?
FACT ONE:
Polish GDP is more than DOUBLE the GDP of Ukraine ( $814bn Poland vs $337bn Ukraine in 2012)
FACT TWO:
GDP per capital for Poland is now nearly 3 x greater for Polish people over Ukrainians ( $21,200 vs $7,400 per capita )
FACT THREE:
Poverty levels in Ukraine are DOUBLE those in Poland ( 10.6% of Poles live in poverty compared to 24% of Ukrainians in 2012 - this will now be much worse)
FACT FOUR:
Industrial growth in Poland in 2012 was plus 5%. Industrial growth for Ukraine was MINUS 5%. in 2014, Ukraine economy is now broken.
I could go on.
So the second largest country after the collapse of the USSR is now on its knees. While another country of similar size like Poland, is now moving ahead.
You, sir, do not know what you are talking about.
scherzkeks said:
And why did he flee? See the first clause in your sentence.
He knew his game was upscherzkeks said:
If I remember correctly, there is a tapped phone conversation with Estonia's foreign minister suggesting that the snipers were hired by opposition leaders.
An investigation already found the perpetrators... which is better than a foreign diplomat speculating 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26868119
skyrover said:
scherzkeks said:
And why did he flee? See the first clause in your sentence.
He knew his game was upscherzkeks said:
If I remember correctly, there is a tapped phone conversation with Estonia's foreign minister suggesting that the snipers were hired by opposition leaders.
An investigation already found the perpetrators... which is better than a foreign diplomat speculating http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26868119
scherzkeks said:
Finlandia said:
You are aware of the politics of the communist Kremlin, to forcefully move native people, or simply kill them, and that Russians repopulated the satellite states?
Have you spent any time in a former Soviet or WP state, or even a country with a border to Russia?
The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)Have you spent any time in a former Soviet or WP state, or even a country with a border to Russia?
I assume that monetary and material support for a violent coup of a democratically elected president also fits under this category of acceptability for you (based on the logic in your post)?
A tip, read about the shelling of Mainila, and ponder about the politics and warfare of the Russians.
alfaman said:
XJ Flyer said:
Which is more or less how Russia still regards 'the west' and NATO since the small matter of WW2.
So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
Don't worry petal - there ain't gonna be a nuclear war ..So you're actually saying that Russia is supposed to forget it all by telling them that 'the cold war is over'.But your chosen 'allies' don't need to because NATO wants to use that as an excuse to push into Crimea which is about a expansionist as an expansionist agenda gets.The fact is your logic is the way to get a lot of people killed on all sides with the inevitable result sooner or later of the nuclear war which we managed to avoid during the real 'Cold War'.
You are being obtuse (again)...
It is simple : Russia invaded a sovereign state - in breach of the treaty it signed with NATO.
Ukrainians want to be part of the EU ... Russia felt insulted ( well boo hoo... ).
By your logic if one bully-boy state invades another to expand its borders we should just appease them in case they get twitchy with nuclear weapons.
Pathetic
By your logic compromise with a major nuclear power along established Cold War lines is now supposedly 'appeasement' and we should go to war with Russia because you want to kick them out of eastern Ukraine and Crimea to allow NATO to move in.All safe in the knowledge that Russia's nuclear arsenal and the will to use it is all just a bluff.Luckily for the world Kennedy had a lot more sense than that George Bush type of strategic logic.
toppstuff said:
scherzkeks said:
toppstuff said:
What nonsense.
I agree, most of your post was nonsense. Poland and Ukraine have similar populations.
When the USSR collapsed, Ukraine was the second largest economy after Russia.
So where are they now in 2012-2014?
FACT ONE:
Polish GDP is more than DOUBLE the GDP of Ukraine ( $814bn Poland vs $337bn Ukraine in 2012)
FACT TWO:
GDP per capital for Poland is now nearly 3 x greater for Polish people over Ukrainians ( $21,200 vs $7,400 per capita )
FACT THREE:
Poverty levels in Ukraine are DOUBLE those in Poland ( 10.6% of Poles live in poverty compared to 24% of Ukrainians in 2012 - this will now be much worse)
FACT FOUR:
Industrial growth in Poland in 2012 was plus 5%. Industrial growth for Ukraine was MINUS 5%. in 2014, Ukraine economy is now broken.
I could go on.
So the second largest country after the collapse of the USSR is now on its knees. While another country of similar size like Poland, is now moving ahead.
You, sir, do not know what you are talking about.
DMN said:
skyrover said:
scherzkeks said:
And why did he flee? See the first clause in your sentence.
He knew his game was upscherzkeks said:
If I remember correctly, there is a tapped phone conversation with Estonia's foreign minister suggesting that the snipers were hired by opposition leaders.
An investigation already found the perpetrators... which is better than a foreign diplomat speculating http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26868119
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