Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[XJ Flyer]

greygoose said:

Giving in to people because they have nuclear weapons is appeasement whether you like it or not, when would you stop giving in to Putin, when he takes over France or Kent?

Stop going on about Bush as well, he hasn't been in charge for years.

The whole strategy has got Bush's level of intelligence all over it being that it is just the same to the letter with no change.IE NATO expansion into Crimea.

So are you saying that Kennedy 'gave in' to Kruschev and the deal he made to stop WW3 taking place in 1962 was 'appeasement' and that instead of taking the missiles out of Turkey he should have told Kruschev that NATO is going to take over Crimea instead.

As for Russia taking over France and Kent you really need to start getting your head around the idea of a defence policy that is based on the strategy of mutually assured destruction.IE in that case there would be no France or Kent left to take over.The difference in this case being that we were never going to end it all over it being us wanting to take over Crimea.

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

We know Poland is moving ahead and the reason for that is because we're going backwards having transferred west European wealth to make eastern Europe richer.Which is all about using our money as a bribe to facilitate Bush's post Cold War plans to push NATO into Crimea.However it seems like Russia has said enough and stopped the plan in it's tracks.Unless that is the Ukrainian requested ceasefire is now off the table and WW3 is back on again.

Utter deluded rubbish.

You don't understand politics.

You don't understand economics.

You don't really seem to understand anything. You just talk a lot.

The key thing to remember is the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was a bankrupt empire that could no longer even afford to pay its security services to oppress the population, so one night they just walked over the wall and the Soviet era ended.

Economics did the rest. There is a simple reason why an Audi TT is assembled in Hungary ( this is a car site after all ! ) . It was because Hungary was broke but also had a skilled workforce who would work for less. All this development happened while Russia was still drunk in a pool of its own piss. Russia was still pissed and asleep when the old eastern bloc countries went off and did their own thing.

Just stop banging on about some western plot and simply get it into your head that the eastern european counties ( aside from ethnic Russians ) do not want Russian influence.

You seem completely incapable of acknowledging that Poland, Czech, Hungary et al, dislike Russia intensely. You are deliberately ignoring their right to self determination.

You are deliberately ignoring the simple fact that even if the EU and NATO did not exist, these countries would still dislike Russia.

You keep thinking about the bully and think nothing of the victim. Hell, you even seem to ignore the fact that the victim even exists.

[DMN]

toppstuff said:

You keep thinking about the bully and think nothing of the victim. Hell, you even seem to ignore the fact that the victim even exists.

^That.

XJ-Tinfoiler he's talking about you.

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

An investigation already found the perpetrators... which is better than a foreign diplomat speculating

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26868119

A inquiry from the post-coup interim government? Ok, you have convinced me.

[toppstuff]

scherzkeks said:

skyrover said:

An investigation already found the perpetrators... which is better than a foreign diplomat speculating

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26868119

A inquiry from the post-coup interim government? Ok, you have convinced me.

Well its still more convincing than anything coming out of the Kremlin or Russia Today.

[Finlandia]

XJ Flyer said:

We know Poland is moving ahead and the reason for that is because we're going backwards having transferred west European wealth to make eastern Europe richer.Which is all about using our money as a bribe to facilitate Bush's post Cold War plans to push NATO into Crimea.However it seems like Russia has said enough and stopped the plan in it's tracks.Unless that is the Ukrainian requested ceasefire is now off the table and WW3 is back on again.

And why is Finland moving ahead? Is it because the West is giving its money to Finland, or is it because Finland was under heavy Soviet/Russian influence and after the collapse of Soviet Finland was able to go its own way?

[scherzkeks]

Finlandia said:

In short then, you have no idea of what life was like under Soviet, and later on Russian oppression.

A tip, read about the shelling of Mainila, and ponder about the politics and warfare of the Russians.

Seems like you glossed over the post you quoted. Here it is again:

The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)

[skyrover]

scherzkeks said:

skyrover said:

An investigation already found the perpetrators... which is better than a foreign diplomat speculating

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26868119

A inquiry from the post-coup interim government? Ok, you have convinced me.

A post interim government still packed with Yanukovych's party members

But no amount of facts will convince the Kremlinbot's eh?

[toppstuff]

Finlandia said:

XJ Flyer said:

We know Poland is moving ahead and the reason for that is because we're going backwards having transferred west European wealth to make eastern Europe richer.Which is all about using our money as a bribe to facilitate Bush's post Cold War plans to push NATO into Crimea.However it seems like Russia has said enough and stopped the plan in it's tracks.Unless that is the Ukrainian requested ceasefire is now off the table and WW3 is back on again.

And why is Finland moving ahead? Is it because the West is giving its money to Finland, or is it because Finland was under heavy Soviet/Russian influence and after the collapse of Soviet Finland was able to go its own way?

Stop making sense. It makes XJ's head explode because it does not fit with his pro-Russian stance. He cannot comprehend that a country can do well once it is unshackled from Russian influence, or that it should have the audacity to want to break away in the first place. He's more interested in watching Red Square marches on You Tube than learning about attitudes toward Russia among non-Russian Europeans.

[toppstuff]

scherzkeks said:

Finlandia said:

In short then, you have no idea of what life was like under Soviet, and later on Russian oppression.

A tip, read about the shelling of Mainila, and ponder about the politics and warfare of the Russians.

Seems like you glossed over the post you quoted. Here it is again:

The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)

You are being just as selective.

I will acknowledge offences against civilians from Ukraine if you will acknowledge unlawful incursions from Russia and the blatant involvement of Russian forces.

What do you have to say about that, or are you a Russian paid shill as well?

[Finlandia]

scherzkeks said:

Finlandia said:

In short then, you have no idea of what life was like under Soviet, and later on Russian oppression.

A tip, read about the shelling of Mainila, and ponder about the politics and warfare of the Russians.

Seems like you glossed over the post you quoted. Here it is again:

The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)

Have you read about the shelling of Mainila?

The vast majority of Eastern Europe despises Russia and wants nothing to do with Kremlin.

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

A post interim government still packed with Yanukovych's party members

But no amount of facts will convince the Kremlinbot's eh?

Yes, I'm sure Yanukovych loyalists came to this conclusion. It's entirely logical isn't it?

[skyrover]

scherzkeks said:

skyrover said:

A post interim government still packed with Yanukovych's party members

But no amount of facts will convince the Kremlinbot's eh?

Yes, I'm sure Yanukovych loyalists came to this conclusion. It's entirely logical isn't it?

The parliament authorised and ratified it so.... yes

In other news, an important Russian newspaper (Vedomosti) which has been known for it's sometimes "controversial" criticism's of the Kremlin has now been bought out by "unknown buyers"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedomosti

https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/5074717248...

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

XJ Flyer said:

We know Poland is moving ahead and the reason for that is because we're going backwards having transferred west European wealth to make eastern Europe richer.Which is all about using our money as a bribe to facilitate Bush's post Cold War plans to push NATO into Crimea.However it seems like Russia has said enough and stopped the plan in it's tracks.Unless that is the Ukrainian requested ceasefire is now off the table and WW3 is back on again.

Utter deluded rubbish.

You don't understand politics.

You don't understand economics.

You don't really seem to understand anything. You just talk a lot.

The key thing to remember is the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was a bankrupt empire that could no longer even afford to pay its security services to oppress the population, so one night they just walked over the wall and the Soviet era ended.

Economics did the rest. There is a simple reason why an Audi TT is assembled in Hungary ( this is a car site after all ! ) . It was because Hungary was broke but also had a skilled workforce who would work for less. All this development happened while Russia was still drunk in a pool of its own piss. Russia was still pissed and asleep when the old eastern bloc countries went off and did their own thing.

Just stop banging on about some western plot and simply get it into your head that the eastern european counties ( aside from ethnic Russians ) do not want Russian influence.

You seem completely incapable of acknowledging that Poland, Czech, Hungary et al, dislike Russia intensely. You are deliberately ignoring their right to self determination.

You are deliberately ignoring the simple fact that even if the EU and NATO did not exist, these countries would still dislike Russia.

You keep thinking about the bully and think nothing of the victim. Hell, you even seem to ignore the fact that the victim even exists.

Yes everyone gets the message the east European countries dislike Russia.That's all the more reason to make sure that we stay well out of their private fights before we let them drag us into something we can't get out of in the form of the nuclear war that we avoided during the real Cold War.Which,unlike now,was based on level headed objective planning and negotiation and in which personal dislike and animosities luckily weren't there clouding the judgement of those with their fingers on the launch button.

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

The parliament authorised and ratified it so.... yes

Right over your head. That honestly surprised me.

[XJ Flyer]

Finlandia said:

scherzkeks said:

Finlandia said:

In short then, you have no idea of what life was like under Soviet, and later on Russian oppression.

A tip, read about the shelling of Mainila, and ponder about the politics and warfare of the Russians.

Seems like you glossed over the post you quoted. Here it is again:

The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)

Have you read about the shelling of Mainila?

The vast majority of Eastern Europe despises Russia and wants nothing to do with Kremlin.

Great so if we want nothing to do with the Kremlin why did we go grovelling to Yeltsin and previous Russian leaders telling them that the Cold War is over and we want to open more channels and links with Russia.While at the same time planning to move NATO further East into Russia's back yard.When surely the correct strategy was just to leave everything as it was with the west on our side and east on theirs with just enough channels of communication left open to make sure that we didn't nuke each other by accident.

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

Yes everyone gets the message the east European countries dislike Russia.That's all the more reason to make sure that we stay well out of their private fights before we let them drag us into something we can't get out of in the form of the nuclear war that we avoided during the real Cold War.Which,unlike now,was based on level headed objective planning and negotiation and in which personal dislike and animosities luckily weren't there clouding the judgement of those with their fingers on the launch button.

More BS.

There is a war in Ukraine simply because most Ukrainians don't want to live in a stty country that has been raped by the Russians for decades. Russia is the rapist that doesn't want one its girls leaving the house. Truth is, its too late. They've gone already.

Best thing that can happen is that Ukraine hives off an eastern strip for the Ethnic Russians and then leave it at that. Crimea is already gone. Putin just wants this to happen in a way that does not make it look like he lost. Then he can go back to strutting around with his shirt off.

[Finlandia]

XJ Flyer said:

Finlandia said:

scherzkeks said:

Finlandia said:

In short then, you have no idea of what life was like under Soviet, and later on Russian oppression.

A tip, read about the shelling of Mainila, and ponder about the politics and warfare of the Russians.

Seems like you glossed over the post you quoted. Here it is again:

The indiscriminate launching of rockets into Eastern population centers is acceptable to you because ethnic groups were deported from some satellite states (Ukraine being largely spared from this) 70 years ago during a war and under a different regime? (Let's also not forget that Khrushchev brought many deportees back and condemned the deportations.)

Have you read about the shelling of Mainila?

The vast majority of Eastern Europe despises Russia and wants nothing to do with Kremlin.

Great so if we want nothing to do with the Kremlin why did we go grovelling to Yeltsin and previous Russian leaders telling them that the Cold War is over and we want to open more channels and links with Russia.While at the same time planning to move NATO further East into Russia's back yard.When surely the correct strategy was just to leave everything as it was with the west on our side and east on theirs with just enough channels of communication left open to make sure that we didn't nuke each other by accident.

I didn't know you're Eastern European.

[XJ Flyer]

toppstuff said:

Finlandia said:

XJ Flyer said:

We know Poland is moving ahead and the reason for that is because we're going backwards having transferred west European wealth to make eastern Europe richer.Which is all about using our money as a bribe to facilitate Bush's post Cold War plans to push NATO into Crimea.However it seems like Russia has said enough and stopped the plan in it's tracks.Unless that is the Ukrainian requested ceasefire is now off the table and WW3 is back on again.

And why is Finland moving ahead? Is it because the West is giving its money to Finland, or is it because Finland was under heavy Soviet/Russian influence and after the collapse of Soviet Finland was able to go its own way?

Stop making sense. It makes XJ's head explode because it does not fit with his pro-Russian stance. He cannot comprehend that a country can do well once it is unshackled from Russian influence, or that it should have the audacity to want to break away in the first place. He's more interested in watching Red Square marches on You Tube than learning about attitudes toward Russia among non-Russian Europeans.

No my view is the total opposite to that.In understanding that Russia is a dangerous paranoid neighbour.But one since at least the 1960's that is armed to the teeth with enough hardware to wipe this country and a large part of North America off the map and the willingness to use it.Our only defence against which is in having similar capabilities to make that close enough to being mutual.It should be obvious to anyone with even slightly more intelligence than George Bush that you don't go picking fights with such a neighbour unless you absolutely can't avoid it.Trying to move NATO into Eastern Ukraine and Crimea not being in the category of 'absolutely can't avoid it'.

[toppstuff]

XJ Flyer said:

Great so if we want nothing to do with the Kremlin why did we go grovelling to Yeltsin and previous Russian leaders telling them that the Cold War is over and we want to open more channels and links with Russia.While at the same time planning to move NATO further East into Russia's back yard.When surely the correct strategy was just to leave everything as it was with the west on our side and east on theirs with just enough channels of communication left open to make sure that we didn't nuke each other by accident.

"We" didn't go grovelling to anyone.

The USSR failed. A vacuum was created.

The old members of the USSR would have moved on regardless. They would have rejected Russia regardless , even if the EU never existed. Things change when empires collapse, that can't be avoided.

Once again, and in an echo of every statement you ever seem to make, you completely ignore the simple fact that the former eastern bloc countries have turned their backs on Russia out of their own choice. And they would have done even if NATO and the EU never existed.

It is clear and obvious that you have never met an eastern European or a Russian, or set foot on any of these countries you seem to want to talk about so much.

Go here: http://www.easyjet.com/en/

Get a cheap flight to Estonia, or Poland. Go to a bar. Ask some questions about the Russians from people young and old. Then you may stop talking such nonsense.