Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[Puggit]

loose cannon said:

I'm not sure watching a missile fired at a small cockpit on the ground has any relevance to a plane shot from the sky quite high up with lots of people on board ? Am I missing the point ?

Apparently it proves that an older missile, no longer used by Russia (but presumbly still in stock in Ukraine, and not upgraded since the split up) was used.

But then the company that makes BUK missiles admitted that fragments in the wreckage were from the updated missile that Russia does use...

Telegraph said:

"The results of our experiment contradict the Dutch report," said Yan Novikov, the general director of the company. "It can now be clearly said that if a rocket was used it was a Buk 9M38, not a Buk 9M38M1, fired from the area of Zaroshchensk.

"The only thing that we do not yet understand are why fragments of 9M38m1 are amongst the evidence."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11927963/MH17-Russian-missile-company-seeks-to-debunk-official-report-into-air-disaster.html

[skyrover]

The Russian's will try to muddy the waters here as much as possible.

As the old saying goes... throw enough sh!t and some will stick

With regards to the missile not being in Russian inventories anymore?

This is a BUK which caught fire in a place called Chita in May this year. It carries the exact type of missile identified in the Dutch report.

Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 13th October 16:28

[Scuffers]

Puggit said:

AreOut said:

rebels have confiscated couple of inoperative BUKs from ukrainian army, quite possible that russian military mechanics came from Russia to fix them and eventually install couple of new parts

Wasn't there video of BUKs crossing the border from Russia? I doubt the rebels had to recycle old Ukrainian ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw

[-DeaDLocK-]

Clever and conclusive video here released by the Dutch:

http://nos.nl/video/2062833-animatie-neerhalen-mh1...

[loose cannon]

Puggit said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/u...

so a bit of a non starter then really. still you can't blame them for trying

[loose cannon]

-DeaDLocK- said:

Clever and conclusive video here released by the Dutch:

http://nos.nl/video/2062833-animatie-neerhalen-mh1...

A bit more closer to aaib standards than a shot at an old chopped off cockpit tied to the floor

[Scuffers]

this made me laugh:

"The results of our experiment contradict the Dutch report," said Yan Novikov, the general director of the company. "It can now be clearly said that if a rocket was used it was a Buk 9M38, not a Buk 9M38M1, fired from the area of Zaroshchensk.

"The only thing that we do not yet understand are why fragments of 9M38m1 are amongst the evidence."

err... maybe because that's what the missile used was?

there will be literally dozens of bits embedded in bit's the the plane (and the pilots), very hard to suggest they were planted.

[andymc]

So why take down an air liner? was it a rogue militia?

[loose cannon]

To be fair it should of never flown over the area to start with

[Scuffers]

loose cannon said:

To be fair it should of never flown over the area to start with

easy to say in hindsight at the time something like 170 planes have been over that day so far nobody considered the possibility the only sane person would shoot an airliner down.

[vonuber]

This is interesting, a map showing BUKs being transported to the area from Russia using publicly available material.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.knightlab.com/sto...

[nikaiyo2]

FourWheelDrift said:

The Buk missile making (Russian government owned) company has released a press statement and video showing what their current missiles would do to a passenger jet showing a different style of damage, suggesting that the missile that did the damage was an older model and not one currently used by the Russian military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DmraSOdTYk

I don't think the truth will ever come out, too many arses to protect.

Hahahahah that's amazing, an IL86 FFS, made from pig iron and recycled ladas. They were more agricultural than aeronautical, I would imagine the damage to a combine harvester would be different to a 777 also. Surely this is to persuade the superbly informed and educated Russian peasantry more than to sway international opinion?

[Octoposse]

andymc said:

So why take down an air liner? was it a rogue militia?

Mistake. Systems supplied by rebels to prevent, among things, government in Kiev using airstrikes against rebels (and civilians - pity they can't do the same in Yemen).

Overthrow of democratically elected government + cheerleading start of civil war as an alternative to Putin emerging triumphant = people die. Who'd have thought?

[AreOut]

Scuffers said:

easy to say in hindsight at the time something like 170 planes have been over that day so far nobody considered the possibility the only sane person would shoot an airliner down.

in hindsight? a military transport plane has been shot down from cruising altitude only few days before MH17 flight, every sane country would close that airspace immediately for civilian traffic, not Ukraine apparently

I don't say they have intentionally let the air traffic through that area hoping rebels would bite but they are still the first to be responsible for this

[Scuffers]

AreOut said:

in hindsight? a military transport plane has been shot down from cruising altitude only few days before MH17 flight, every sane country would close that airspace immediately for civilian traffic, not Ukraine apparently

I don't say they have intentionally let the air traffic through that area hoping rebels would bite but they are still the first to be responsible for this

that one was shot down close to the ground not using a long-range BUK missile

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27845313

it was not thought at the time they had access to high-altitude missile systems, they had not considered that Russia would supply them.

[DMN]

Wonder how long it would take the putin-bots to emerge...

Related:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/14/catha...

Flights over Syria are being reviwed, now that Russia and Iran are involved.

[skyrover]

An interesting comment from Tibber Joutra, Chairman of the Dutch inquiry regarding the Russian "investigation" a few days before the Dutch report was released.


"It’s always special when people already know that they don’t agree with a report that’s not even published yet."

[ralphrj]

Interesting reading some of the detailed analysis of the report.

By the time the Pilot's body had been located in the wreckage by investigators it had already been subject to an autopsy. Whoever carried out the mystery autopsy had attempted to remove metal fragments from the body there were so many they gave up.

Numerous pieces of wreckage that had been photographed at the crash site were removed by persons unknown. These included large parts of the cockpit.

[KTF]

It does make me wonder how the authorities thought they would get away with 'covering it up' as it just makes them look like idiots.

Had they left everything alone and/or held their hand up they would probably have gained more respect than they have now lost.

[Puggit]

Russia doesn't particularly care what the rest of the world thinks - but it's important to convince their own people that they are innocent of this crime, and are seen to be standing up for