Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[skyrover]

AreOut said:

I'd say it's 50/50. Russian fault is providing weapons to idiots who couldn't identify the plane before firing, ukrainian fault is sending the plane there knowing full well it's incredibly dangerous.

MH17 was flying at 32,000 feet.

You need a monster of a missile combined with radar to shoot down anything at that height.

Why should the Ukrainians, or anyone else worry about that kind of hardware, which should have been impossible for the 'rebels' to acquire, let alone operate?

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 1st October 15:14

[AreOut]

rebels publicly bragged about capturing ukrainian halfworking BUK launcher(s) and posted pictures posing with them, in reality those were probably smuggled over the border(or at least parts/missiles for them) but it doesn't matter, the thing is ukrainians(even ordinary people who followed the conflict) knew about that yet acted like they didn't

[skyrover]

AreOut said:

rebels publicly bragged about capturing ukrainian halfworking BUK launcher(s) and posted pictures posing with them, in reality those were probably smuggled over the border(or at least parts/missiles for them) but it doesn't matter, the thing is ukrainians(even ordinary people who followed the conflict) knew about that yet acted like they didn't

Here is a nice article to explain things for you a little.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a17807/why-...

Essentially it boils down to conflicting information, sluggish decision making and bureaucracy combined with the fact there is no way an airliner should have been capable of being shot down without serious hardware.

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 1st October 21:29

[FN2TypeR]

Cobnapint said:

Damning words indeed, and very true. But in the great scheme of things, totally ineffectual.

Russia has been lying to it's own people and getting away with it for so long now, it thinks it can carry on doing it to everybody else without getting found out.

The trouble is, modern technology has gifted the worlds media and intelligence services with all the tools necessary to expose the vast majority of Russian governmental statements for what they truly are.

Recent interviews on the streets of Moscow highlight the fact that the Russian population are the only ones still in the dark - their only source of information being propaganda being fed out of state-owned media outlets. Anybody who tries to give a contrary opinion knows they'll end up getting a 'visit' or worse, so nobody says a dicky bird.

It was pitiful to see Lavrov today saying how much care the Russian AF took to avoid harming civilians in Aleppo.

Edited by Cobnapint on Friday 30th September 21:26

I agree with your comments but I'm not sure about the bit in bold - they're lying of course, but I genuinely believe they don't care whether they are believed (on the international stage at least) or not, rather than them expecting people to buy it.

After all, what is any nation really willing to do about it? Not much is my guess.

[nikaiyo2]

AreOut said:

rebels publicly bragged about capturing ukrainian halfworking BUK launcher(s) and posted pictures posing with them, in reality those were probably smuggled over the border(or at least parts/missiles for them) but it doesn't matter, the thing is ukrainians(even ordinary people who followed the conflict) knew about that yet acted like they didn't

You don't just acquire a BUK set it up, point it at an aircraft flying at 32,000 and shoot down said aircraft. It's not like an RPG or an AK47, it requires specialist training to set up and use.

Capturing a BUK is something I can believe, a rag tag bunch of rebels figuring out how to use one I can't.

[skyrover]

nikaiyo2 said:

AreOut said:

rebels publicly bragged about capturing ukrainian halfworking BUK launcher(s) and posted pictures posing with them, in reality those were probably smuggled over the border(or at least parts/missiles for them) but it doesn't matter, the thing is ukrainians(even ordinary people who followed the conflict) knew about that yet acted like they didn't

You don't just acquire a BUK set it up, point it at an aircraft flying at 32,000 and shoot down said aircraft. It's not like an RPG or an AK47, it requires specialist training to set up and use.

Capturing a BUK is something I can believe, a rag tag bunch of rebels figuring out how to use one I can't.

Indeed



They were trained, or at least supervised.

[AreOut]

skyrover said:

Here is a nice article to explain things for you a little.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a17807/why-...

Essentially it boils down to conflicting information, sluggish decision making and bureaucracy combined with the fact there is no way an airliner should have been capable of being shot down without serious hardware.

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 1st October 21:29

but Ukrainians knew that rebels possessed serious hardware, they shot down their military transport plane from cruising altitude just a couple of days before MH17 so it was quite obvious they had serious hardware

nikaiyo2 said:

You don't just acquire a BUK set it up, point it at an aircraft flying at 32,000 and shoot down said aircraft. It's not like an RPG or an AK47, it requires specialist training to set up and use.

Capturing a BUK is something I can believe, a rag tag bunch of rebels figuring out how to use one I can't.

there are rebels who did their military conscription (which is obligatory in Ukraine&Russia) in a SAM unit, it requires specialist training to operate it properly and they unfortunately didn't operate it that way

[skyrover]

AreOut said:

but Ukrainians knew that rebels possessed serious hardware, they shot down their military transport plane from cruising altitude just a couple of days before MH17 so it was quite obvious they had serious hardware

There was debate at the time as to what had shot down the An-26.

Some thought it was an SAM or A2A missile originating in Russia, highlighting the level of confusion/fog of war.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28299334

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/what-weapo...

[AreOut]

whatever it was you don't let civilian planes fly through airspace where your military planes are falling down from cruising altitude, it's called common sense ffs

[nikaiyo2]

AreOut said:

skyrover said:

Here is a nice article to explain things for you a little.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a17807/why-...

Essentially it boils down to conflicting information, sluggish decision making and bureaucracy combined with the fact there is no way an airliner should have been capable of being shot down without serious hardware.

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 1st October 21:29

but Ukrainians knew that rebels possessed serious hardware, they shot down their military transport plane from cruising altitude just a couple of days before MH17 so it was quite obvious they had serious hardware

nikaiyo2 said:

You don't just acquire a BUK set it up, point it at an aircraft flying at 32,000 and shoot down said aircraft. It's not like an RPG or an AK47, it requires specialist training to set up and use.

Capturing a BUK is something I can believe, a rag tag bunch of rebels figuring out how to use one I can't.

there are rebels who did their military conscription (which is obligatory in Ukraine&Russia) in a SAM unit, it requires specialist training to operate it properly and they unfortunately didn't operate it that way

Or Russia sent "advisors" I know what I think is more likely.

Wasn't the AN26, shot down from a BUK fired in Russia?

[AreOut]

no it wasn't, BUK has the range of 20-30 km max and it happened further from the border

[nikaiyo2]

AreOut said:

no it wasn't, BUK has the range of 20-30 km max and it happened further from the border

I thought it was quite close to the border?

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/213496.html

[AreOut]

it was at cruising altitude and flying to Lugansk so it had to be at least 40-50 km from the border since Lugansk is around 30-40 km from the border

[The Mad Monk]

Anyway, what about flight 370?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Fl...

[AreOut]

I think the search is stopped or soon to be.

[Welshbeef]

AreOut said:

I think the search is stopped or soon to be.

Does anyone know how long he search for the plane in Chillie went on back in the 1950/60's? It was discovered a few years ago as the glacier and spat it out at the end.

Possibly will be a similar outcome or not even in our lifetime.

[AreOut]

when deep search sonars become cheap enough for ordinary people it will be found somewhere along the 7th arc, won't happen soon though

[scenario8]

A development;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43457694

[Cobnapint]

A further development. Russia was lying - who knew.

http://news.sky.com/story/mh17-plane-was-brought-d...

[anonymous-user]

Cobnapint said:

A further development. Russia was lying - who knew.

http://news.sky.com/story/mh17-plane-was-brought-d...

Dutch investigation talk No about “trials os suspects” good luck with that. Russia denies any involvement.