Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
spikeyhead said:
ZR1cliff said:
Would the passengers and crew have died instantly ?
I think they'd have been unconscious very soon (a few seconds) after depressurisation due to hypoxiaZR1cliff said:
Would the passengers and crew have died instantly ?
Unlikely.I remember one aircrash, a TWA 747, where there was an explosion on board and the vast majority of the passengers were killed - whiplash causing broken necks - but I don't think anything similar would have happened here.
Explosive decompression would have occurred but I don't think that would not have killed them instantly. 33,000 is obviously higher than Everest but the plane would have fallen: 35'ps/ps less air resistance.
Can't seem to get it out of my mind. They would have been sitting there, then the missile exploded, the integrity of the hull would have been breached, some passengers would have been thrown out, others would have remained more or less in their seats, while others would have been tossed about. There were kids on board.
There's every possibility that those thrown out would have lived until they hit the ground.
skyrover said:
Russia invades and siezes Crimea.
Russia imports weapons, special forces and mercenaries into East Ukraine in order to instill unrest and sabotage Ukrainian stability.
Stop this needless EU agression now!
Ukraine wants to break away from historic Russian sphere of influence to join the EU because the EU is offering better financial incentives in an obvious agenda of shifting it's influence into that of previous Russian influence.The Russian section of the Ukrainian population wants to stay with Russia.What is effectively a civil war of seperation results with the EU taking sides against the Russian population. Russia imports weapons, special forces and mercenaries into East Ukraine in order to instill unrest and sabotage Ukrainian stability.
Stop this needless EU agression now!
ZR1cliff said:
Would the passengers and crew have died instantly ?
It looks as is the plane exploded or disintegrated in mid air. That probably rendered them unconscious at least. They may not have remained so, but I think most would have died instantly on impact if they survived the initial explosion. Let's hope so. The best case scenario is they they knew nothing about what happened, and didn't suffer.XJ Flyer said:
Ukraine wants to break away from historic Russian sphere of influence to join the EU because the EU is offering better financial incentives in an obvious agenda of shifting it's influence into that of previous Russian influence.The Russian section of the Ukrainian population wants to stay with Russia.What is effectively civil war of seperation results with the EU taking sides against the Russian population.
Commendable effort to appear even-handed, but I can't quite work out whether you are either equating or ignoring the morality of Russian methods of influence to those of the EU/West.Ideally it's left to the people of the Ukraine to decide on in free/democratic ways. Now, let's see, which of the EU/Russia has had a problem accepting that...?
skyrover said:
The EU is not holding Ukraine over the barrel of a gun.
If the UK decided to pull out of the EU... is the EU justified in sending Spec ops, weaponry and mercenaries into Scotland to sabotage the union because the Scots dont want to leave?
Assuming the EU was offering no financial 'incentives' whatsoever would Ukraine then want to join the EU.While the dispute shows all the signs of Russia being willing to settle for an East/West split taking Eastern Ukraine and it's majority Russian population into Russia.Seems a bit like the situation and settlement reached in Ireland to me.If the UK decided to pull out of the EU... is the EU justified in sending Spec ops, weaponry and mercenaries into Scotland to sabotage the union because the Scots dont want to leave?
In which case it's then just a question of the Ukrainian nationalists accepting the decision and right to exist of the Russian loyalist community in Russian controlled Eastern Ukraine just as Michael Collins settled for and the UK then enforced by military means.Why is that so difficult for the Brits to accept in the case of Russia but it's obviously ok for us.
XJ Flyer said:
Ukraine wants to break away from historic Russian sphere of influence to join the EU because the EU is offering better financial incentives in an obvious agenda of shifting it's influence into that of previous Russian influence.The Russian section of the Ukrainian population wants to stay with Russia.What is effectively a civil war of seperation results with the EU taking sides against the Russian population.
Having just returned from Bulgaria I paraphrase what a local told me, "we the ordinary people don't want to be part of a federal state of Europe but the rich (politicians) do........ they (meaning EU) want to control us just like Russia did, same as Hitler tried, only this time without bullets..........I love your queen and we want our monarchy back also.....this EU trying to take over the whole of Europe will not end well"toppstuff said:
Too many armchair strategists with hindsight here.
Simple fact: the global aviation community and their associations generally thought Ukraine was subject to normal rules: stay high and you can still use the route. No different to Iraq and Afghan. Hundreds of other aircraft have been using the same route. I don't blame Malaysia.
Simple fact: The Russians have piss poor command and control structures. They basically trained a drunken gibbon with a deadly weapon and they are now embarrassed how he chose to use it.
Everything else, all this armchair posturing, is just BS.
The West suppressed the Iraqi air defence network, following which the Iraqis did not have the ability to strike at aircraft at 33,000 feet.Simple fact: the global aviation community and their associations generally thought Ukraine was subject to normal rules: stay high and you can still use the route. No different to Iraq and Afghan. Hundreds of other aircraft have been using the same route. I don't blame Malaysia.
Simple fact: The Russians have piss poor command and control structures. They basically trained a drunken gibbon with a deadly weapon and they are now embarrassed how he chose to use it.
Everything else, all this armchair posturing, is just BS.
As far as I am aware, the various factions in Afghanistan have never had the ability to strike at aircraft at 33,000 feet.
At least 2 of the 3 participants in the Ukraine mess have had the ability to strike at aircraft above 33,000 feet for decades.
The assumption was made by the aviation "authorities" that there was no risk of a long range anti-aircraft weapon being fired at a civilian airliner over the Ukraine, that assumption was clearly wrong. Were the aviation "authorities" aware of the technical capabilities of the Russians or the Ukrainians?
EskimoArapaho said:
XJ Flyer said:
Ukraine wants to break away from historic Russian sphere of influence to join the EU because the EU is offering better financial incentives in an obvious agenda of shifting it's influence into that of previous Russian influence.The Russian section of the Ukrainian population wants to stay with Russia.What is effectively civil war of seperation results with the EU taking sides against the Russian population.
Commendable effort to appear even-handed, but I can't quite work out whether you are either equating or ignoring the morality of Russian methods of influence to those of the EU/West.Ideally it's left to the people of the Ukraine to decide on in free/democratic ways. Now, let's see, which of the EU/Russia has had a problem accepting that...?
XJ Flyer said:
Assuming the EU was offering no financial 'incentives' whatsoever would Ukraine then want to join the EU.While the dispute shows all the signs of Russia being willing to settle for an East/West split taking Eastern Ukraine and it's majority Russian population into Russia.Seems a bit like the situation and settlement reached in Ireland to me.
They look over the border to Poland and see how life has improved dramatically due to western style reform of law and the economy. Than they look at the alternative in Belarus, or indeed their own country. XJ Flyer said:
In which case it's then just a question of the Ukrainian nationalists accepting the decision and right to exist of the Russian loyalist community in Russian controlled Eastern Ukraine just as Michael Collins settled for and the UK then enforced by military means.Why is that so difficult for the Brits to accept in the case of Russia but it's obviously ok for us.
Yes, but that is an internal matter for the Ukrainian's to deal with. There is absolutely no justification for Russia's actions.Again... would it be acceptable for the EU to send weaponry, spec ops and mercenaries to Scotland in order to sabotage our Union because some of the Scots wish to remain in Europe?
Can you answer that question please?
mrpurple said:
Having just returned from Bulgaria I paraphrase what a local told me, "we the ordinary people don't want to be part of a federal state of Europe but the rich (politicians) do........ they (meaning EU) want to control us just like Russia did, same as Hitler tried, only this time without bullets..........I love your queen and we want our monarchy back also.....this EU trying to take over the whole of Europe will not end well"
Eastern Europe has a very stark view on being dominated by other powers - borne out by the fact that for hundreds of years they have been dominated by one or more major power - whether it be Russia, Turkey (the Ottomans) or Western Europe - such as Nazi Germany.After the fall of the Soviet Union, they rushed headlong into wanting to sign up to be "Western Europeans - not only to take advantage of the economic benefits - but also to signal to their old Russian masters that they were no longer linked in any way to them.
The further east you go in Europe, the more problematic this trend becomes. Russia in particular seems to have adopted a policy of "so far and no further". It tolerated the departure of Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland etc but Ukraine is just too much to bear (for The Bear
). XJ Flyer said:
I'm guessing that 'democratic decision' in this case that the Brits have in mind isn't going to be on the same lines as that in Northern Ireland.Where the army declared the border first and then the democratic majority was based only on that of the population within that border.
Where did you get the idea that the British Army decided where the border with The Free State/Eire/Irish Republic should be?Have you heard of The Border Commission?
If not, look it up.
skyrover said:
XJ Flyer said:
Assuming the EU was offering no financial 'incentives' whatsoever would Ukraine then want to join the EU.While the dispute shows all the signs of Russia being willing to settle for an East/West split taking Eastern Ukraine and it's majority Russian population into Russia.Seems a bit like the situation and settlement reached in Ireland to me.
They look over the border to Poland and see how life has improved dramatically due to western style reform of law and the economy. Than they look at the alternative in Belarus, or indeed their own country. XJ Flyer said:
In which case it's then just a question of the Ukrainian nationalists accepting the decision and right to exist of the Russian loyalist community in Russian controlled Eastern Ukraine just as Michael Collins settled for and the UK then enforced by military means.Why is that so difficult for the Brits to accept in the case of Russia but it's obviously ok for us.
Yes, but that is an internal matter for the Ukrainian's to deal with. There is absolutely no justification for Russia's actions.Again... would it be acceptable for the EU to send weaponry, spec ops and mercenaries to Scotland in order to sabotage our Union because some of the Scots wish to remain in Europe?
Can you answer that question please?
As for Poland yes Poland is now richer at our expense.
EskimoArapaho said:
XJ Flyer said:
Ukraine wants to break away from historic Russian sphere of influence to join the EU because the EU is offering better financial incentives in an obvious agenda of shifting it's influence into that of previous Russian influence.The Russian section of the Ukrainian population wants to stay with Russia.What is effectively civil war of seperation results with the EU taking sides against the Russian population.
Commendable effort to appear even-handed, but I can't quite work out whether you are either equating or ignoring the morality of Russian methods of influence to those of the EU/West.Ideally it's left to the people of the Ukraine to decide on in free/democratic ways. Now, let's see, which of the EU/Russia has had a problem accepting that...?
It is a matter of record that the outcome of free/democratic political processes in Ukraine was against closer ties with the EU, and in favour of strengthening links with Russia. Although divided, that was the expressed will of the majority of Ukrainians (predominantly in the South and East).
But, oh no, we're not having that . . . . .
Eric Mc said:
XJ Flyer said:
I'm guessing that 'democratic decision' in this case that the Brits have in mind isn't going to be on the same lines as that in Northern Ireland.Where the army declared the border first and then the democratic majority was based only on that of the population within that border.
Where did you get the idea that the British Army decided where the border with The Free State/Eire/Irish Republic should be?Have you heard of The Border Commission?
If not, look it up.
mrpurple said:
Having just returned from Bulgaria I paraphrase what a local told me, "we the ordinary people don't want to be part of a federal state of Europe but the rich (politicians) do........ they (meaning EU) want to control us just like Russia did, same as Hitler tried, only this time without bullets..........I love your queen and we want our monarchy back also.....this EU trying to take over the whole of Europe will not end well"
The local Bulgarian is pretty spot on IMO.Politicians are not to be trusted, no matter what country they come from.
Eric Mc said:
XJ Flyer said:
we sent the army in then dictated terms and conditions to the Irish nationalist side.The result being the border drawn between Northern and Southern Ireland to date.
When was this supposed to have happened?What year are you talking about?
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