Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
CAPP0 said:
Hmm. I read that paper this morning, and I thought that was in pretty poor taste.
Really? It's the looting shots and delay in recovering the bodies that has shocked me the most while Putin is pictured with a menacing grin leaving Church. I'd say the cartoon is rather apt. 
Oops!
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/18/rus...
"Russia caught editing Wikipedia entry about MH17"
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/18/rus...
"Russia caught editing Wikipedia entry about MH17"
article said:
"The edit was in response to an initial edit to the MH17 section that said the plane was shot down "by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation," according to the website Global Voices.
In a counter-edit less than an hour later, the entry was changed to say, "The plane was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers".
In a counter-edit less than an hour later, the entry was changed to say, "The plane was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers".
Does anyone believe this may lead to passenger planes being offered for sale with radar warning systems and deployable counter measures?
While the whole industry maintains that air travel is still safe, no one company has an advantage. Recent events and the media hype have stirred fear and fear sells things. So who will be the first to capitalise, offer the USP of on board counter measures and specially trained military pilots (or some such thing) and charge a premium for that service to all the people that will pay for peace of mind?
While the whole industry maintains that air travel is still safe, no one company has an advantage. Recent events and the media hype have stirred fear and fear sells things. So who will be the first to capitalise, offer the USP of on board counter measures and specially trained military pilots (or some such thing) and charge a premium for that service to all the people that will pay for peace of mind?
Bill said:
The mad thing is that the Russians could salvage the situation from their perspective by doing the decent thing, sorting the bodies and handing over the separatists (presumably) responsible. Anything else suggests they had more of a hand in it imo.
Precisely. That's how dumb they are.i'm sure history won't rely on wikipadia for its account of events.
i think the cartoon was very apt and thankfully we live in a country where we can make those kind of statements without risk of being dragged off somewhere dark and lonely.
the issue for me here is due the the civil war no-one seems to be in control - rebels aren;t an official army therefore not bound by any international "legal" obligations or conventions.
in short who can we complain to if they don;t allow us access to the site? no-one. putin will teflon responsibility - the rebels are acting of their own volition officially. unofficially we know putin is pulling strings.
the fact that the rebels are ungovernable means that unforgivably denying access to the site to recover bodies etc leaves the authorities effectively powerless.
one worry is that if the rebels find the black box i doubt it would ever be seen again.
i think the cartoon was very apt and thankfully we live in a country where we can make those kind of statements without risk of being dragged off somewhere dark and lonely.
the issue for me here is due the the civil war no-one seems to be in control - rebels aren;t an official army therefore not bound by any international "legal" obligations or conventions.
in short who can we complain to if they don;t allow us access to the site? no-one. putin will teflon responsibility - the rebels are acting of their own volition officially. unofficially we know putin is pulling strings.
the fact that the rebels are ungovernable means that unforgivably denying access to the site to recover bodies etc leaves the authorities effectively powerless.
one worry is that if the rebels find the black box i doubt it would ever be seen again.
Derek Smith said:
skyrover said:
As expected, the Russian propaganda machine in full swing.
I don't want to start an argument that ends up with personal attacks - there's enough of them on this thread already - but are you suggesting that in the West we are not subject to propaganda over this incident?The RU guys are now singing that from the rooftops as proof that it wasn't them with a stolen BUK as Ukraine says they never stole it.
ie. It's not really propaganda if the Russians pass on info that the Ukrainians put out.
aussienews said:
OSCE investigators were given limited access to the crash site overnight but were blocked from going further by armed pro-Russian separatists “for their own” safety
Black boxes would seem to be in "rebel" handsaussienews said:
The OSCE mission’s spokesman, Michael Bociurkiw, told the ABC that bodies at the crash site were “exposed to the elements” and “already starting to decompose”.
“It is a very, very gruesome scene and it boggles the mind that this could go on. We are going into day two or three now,” he said.
“It is kind of the world’s biggest crime scene right now.”
Mr Bociurkiw said the separatists were “very aggressive” and may have been under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malay...“It is a very, very gruesome scene and it boggles the mind that this could go on. We are going into day two or three now,” he said.
“It is kind of the world’s biggest crime scene right now.”
Mr Bociurkiw said the separatists were “very aggressive” and may have been under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
Nom de ploom said:
One worry is that if the rebels find the black box i doubt it would ever be seen again.
The way the rebels were so keenly lobbing all the evidence into the skipwagon, I'm pretty sure the International investigators are not going to be able see much at all.I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Eric Mc said:
XJ Flyer said:
I
By that comparison I don't think that Northern Ireland has been dragged into the UK by military force either.
Is that a change of mind then?By that comparison I don't think that Northern Ireland has been dragged into the UK by military force either.
Do you do know that -
a) the border was drawn up in 1921/22
b) it was drawn up by a Border Commission which was made up of people from both communities and Britain
c) This group included Arthur Griffiths (head of Sinn Féin) and Michael Collins (head of the IRA).
The pictures shows Michael Collins signing the treaty.
As I've said the relevance in this case being that 'if' Russia 'were' to invade Eastern Ukraine and join it's loyalist paramilitary groups against the nationalist side,in order to set up a loyalist enclave in Eastern Ukraine,it would be gross hypocricy for the British to take any other position than that which it took up itself in the case of Ireland.
As things stand at present it's the worst of all worlds situation of a civil war between loyalist paramilitary groups and the Ukrainian nationalist forces.Which in this case would compare with Devalera's position not Collins'.
Fishtigua said:
I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Well, I see the EU and US leaders who thought it was a good idea to destabalise Ukraine and support regime change still strutting around with no sense of responsibility. Ditto Ukraine's current leaders, emboldened by outside support to go for a military solution rather than the political one that Russia has been pressing for. Do we think this is a "game changer" or not?
Even if it's proved beyond doubt that this was as a result of Russian equipment in rebel hands, I think we can be guilty of overestimating the impact of this (tragic) event.
Putin is unlikely to be impacted by this is his own country. Russian culture is lesser sensitive to the loss of life. The EU is hardly going to invade anywhere, nor is the US that seems to be becoming more isolationist with regards to new conflicts.
I suspect we will see many headlines and a lot of handwringing and the conflict will continue much as before.
Even if it's proved beyond doubt that this was as a result of Russian equipment in rebel hands, I think we can be guilty of overestimating the impact of this (tragic) event.
Putin is unlikely to be impacted by this is his own country. Russian culture is lesser sensitive to the loss of life. The EU is hardly going to invade anywhere, nor is the US that seems to be becoming more isolationist with regards to new conflicts.
I suspect we will see many headlines and a lot of handwringing and the conflict will continue much as before.
Fishtigua said:
The way the rebels were so keenly lobbing all the evidence into the skipwagon, I'm pretty sure the International investigators are going to be able see much at all.
I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Let me guess you think he'd be quaking in his boots at your brave comments.The fact is at worst it's a similar/same situation as that which took place when the Vincennes brought down the Iranian airliner and by your logic Russia as an Iranian ally should have gone to war with America over it.In which case why would Russia care either way wether it's own 'side' in the war in Ukraine brought down the plane.Just like the Vincennes if that's how it happened it's an accident involving conflicting forces where anyone with any sense would have been well out of.I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
The only interest we should have is in trying to get the two opposing forces to stop fighting by reaching a settlement which suits both sides.Not alienating Russia further thereby backing it into a corner which is likely to cause more trouble for the world than less.
Octoposse said:
Fishtigua said:
I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Well, I see the EU and US leaders who thought it was a good idea to destabalise Ukraine and support regime change still strutting around with no sense of responsibility. Ditto Ukraine's current leaders, emboldened by outside support to go for a military solution rather than the political one that Russia has been pressing for. XJ Flyer said:
Octoposse said:
Fishtigua said:
I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Well, I see the EU and US leaders who thought it was a good idea to destabalise Ukraine and support regime change still strutting around with no sense of responsibility. Ditto Ukraine's current leaders, emboldened by outside support to go for a military solution rather than the political one that Russia has been pressing for. 
XJ Flyer said:
Yes I know.The bit which you've missed is that the treaty being signed was a case of sign it or the war which led to it being put on the table by us not the nationalists will continue.It wasn't a case of everyone being happy on the nationalist side to sign it.Which is why not long after it's signing the free state ended up in a civil war amongst it's continuity factions and Collins' factions.In which he for one was a casualty.
As I've said the relevance in this case being that 'if' Russia 'were' to invade Eastern Ukraine and join it's loyalist paramilitary groups against the nationalist side,in order to set up a loyalist enclave in Eastern Ukraine,it would be gross hypocricy for the British to take any other position than that which it took up itself in the case of Ireland.
As things stand at present it's the worst of all worlds situation of a civil war between loyalist paramility groups and the Ukrainian nationaliset forces.Which in this case woul compare with Devalera's position not Collins'.
Both Britain and the bulk of the Irish involved in the War of Independence were keen to call a halt to hostilities. The resultant agreement and drawing of the present border was NOT forced by either party. The border was drafted based on the survey of population demographics in the northern part of the country and drawn around those counties with a predominantly Unionist leaning. It tried to take into account the sensitivities of all parties concerned. As I said, it was not forced.As I've said the relevance in this case being that 'if' Russia 'were' to invade Eastern Ukraine and join it's loyalist paramilitary groups against the nationalist side,in order to set up a loyalist enclave in Eastern Ukraine,it would be gross hypocricy for the British to take any other position than that which it took up itself in the case of Ireland.
As things stand at present it's the worst of all worlds situation of a civil war between loyalist paramility groups and the Ukrainian nationaliset forces.Which in this case woul compare with Devalera's position not Collins'.
Obviously, there were some on the more extreme "separatist" side who did not agree with this compromise - which is what led to the following Civil War - which lasted only one year and resulted in the defeat of those who opposed the Treaty and the Border.
Munter said:
What is there to cover up? Everybody is certain it was shot down. The question is, by which side? As both sides have taken the same weapons from the same pile even if the missile used is found it'd be no real use to help identify who fired it.
Various bits of the Russian/separatist side have claimed that it was a Ukrainian BUK or Ukrainian fighter jet that brought it down. Introducing doubt about the true cause by being able to tamper with the evidence will increase the grey area of the final accident report. Remove any BUK shrapnel and shoot a few of the right bullets through a few panels and then put them back. Anything that adds any degree of deniability to the Russian/rebel cause will be grabbed at.
XJ Flyer said:
Octoposse said:
Fishtigua said:
I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Well, I see the EU and US leaders who thought it was a good idea to destabalise Ukraine and support regime change still strutting around with no sense of responsibility. Ditto Ukraine's current leaders, emboldened by outside support to go for a military solution rather than the political one that Russia has been pressing for. 
t has hit the fan will the EU be there to take responsibility and clear it up - nope. Now it's down to nation states and other institutions to deal with the mess. This is a horrible situation for the families who have lost loved ones and inflames an already fraught situation.
If the Russians were to follow the American lead when shooting down unarmed civilian planes, they would need to decorate the commander of the unit, not charge any of the missile system operators, not apologies to any of the affected countries or admit liability either, paying out a relatively small compensation to the victims families.
Iranian Air flight 655 shows how to shot down a civilian airliner and then take minimal responsibility for it. George Bush Snr. told the UN, "shooting down a civilian airliner was an appropriate action", perhaps Putin can use the same phrase.
It seems the Russians and separatists are merely following the example set by the USA. The world has been here before, and democracies can be hard to distinguish from dictatorships or visa versa.
If the Russians were to follow the American lead when shooting down unarmed civilian planes, they would need to decorate the commander of the unit, not charge any of the missile system operators, not apologies to any of the affected countries or admit liability either, paying out a relatively small compensation to the victims families.
Iranian Air flight 655 shows how to shot down a civilian airliner and then take minimal responsibility for it. George Bush Snr. told the UN, "shooting down a civilian airliner was an appropriate action", perhaps Putin can use the same phrase.
It seems the Russians and separatists are merely following the example set by the USA. The world has been here before, and democracies can be hard to distinguish from dictatorships or visa versa.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 19th July 13:27
skyrover said:
XJ Flyer said:
Octoposse said:
Fishtigua said:
I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.
Well, I see the EU and US leaders who thought it was a good idea to destabalise Ukraine and support regime change still strutting around with no sense of responsibility. Ditto Ukraine's current leaders, emboldened by outside support to go for a military solution rather than the political one that Russia has been pressing for. QuantumTokoloshi said:
If the Russians were to follow the American lead when shooting down unarmed civilian planes, they would need to decorate the commander of the unit, not charge any of the missile system operators, not apologies to any of the affected countries or admit liability either, paying out a relatively small compensation to the victims families.
It seems the Russians and separatists are merely following the example set by the USA. The world has been here before, and democracies can be hard to distinguish from dictatorships or visa versa.
If the Malaysians had already used military aircraft to attack the Russians, then it might be an analogous situation.It seems the Russians and separatists are merely following the example set by the USA. The world has been here before, and democracies can be hard to distinguish from dictatorships or visa versa.
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