WW1 100 years ago
Discussion
scorp said:
I've heard figures of 10s of millions being quoted, the Famine in India being the biggest I think.
Not quite as bad as the reigning genocide champ Genghis Khan.
That's what I was thinking, it has to be a huge figure. Excluding WW1 & WW2 and the like. I am talking about building the empire when we would invade a backward country and nick it.Not quite as bad as the reigning genocide champ Genghis Khan.
I have a colleague who is very posh and is descended from Raffles, of Singapore fame. One of his ancestors was an army officer up country in Borneo, or some such location. A tax collector or other official was killed by villagers, so the officer led a party of troops to the village, surrounded the long house in which all the villagers had taken shelter, and set fire to it. Oradour Sur Glane, anyone?
Having said that, the Empire also brought literacy, the rule of law, hospitals and so on to many areas. Like most things in history, it was grey rather than black or white.
Having said that, the Empire also brought literacy, the rule of law, hospitals and so on to many areas. Like most things in history, it was grey rather than black or white.
I was trying to find figures for the British Empire and found that the Belgians were into mass genocide as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgiu...
Back to the perfidious British, I found this:
http://listverse.com/2014/02/04/10-evil-crimes-of-...
but then I found this:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/globalisatio...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgiu...
Back to the perfidious British, I found this:
http://listverse.com/2014/02/04/10-evil-crimes-of-...
but then I found this:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/globalisatio...
Belgian Empire, yes, dreadful. King Leopold ran the Congo as his own personal fiefdom, distinct from the Belgian State. Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" (filmed as "Apocalypse Now") reflects on what happened.
If you were an African circa 1880 and had to pick who was going to colonise you, you might perhaps have said Brits first, then French, then maybe Dutch, with Portuguese* and Germans a way down the list and the Belgians at the very bottom. Please, let it not be the Belgians.
* Yes, they had been there for ages already.
If you were an African circa 1880 and had to pick who was going to colonise you, you might perhaps have said Brits first, then French, then maybe Dutch, with Portuguese* and Germans a way down the list and the Belgians at the very bottom. Please, let it not be the Belgians.
* Yes, they had been there for ages already.
Breadvan72 said:
Yep. Not bad for a mostly gloomy woman who didn't go out much.
Have you seen the splendid film "Charge of the Light Brigade"? Groovy sixties radical take on Victorian Imperial pomp.
Yes. Up there with Zulu and Waterloo! However I love the old movies, Dam busters, Longest Day, Ice cold in Alex etcHave you seen the splendid film "Charge of the Light Brigade"? Groovy sixties radical take on Victorian Imperial pomp.
Grumfutock said:
This banter has made me wonder. How many did we kill capturing the Empire? I am thinking war of invasions, putting down rebellions, imported disease, mistreatment etc. Must be quiet a figure?
What b
ks - nearly all of them would have died anyway and if they hadn't been fighting the British they would have been fighting the French or each other. I can't stand bloody liberals.For real genocide you need serious state backed nutters, like Stalin, Hitler and Mao, and if you think that the same thing is happening in Rotherham you are deluded. I was there and I can tell you, Spain under Franco was not a bad place.
cardigankid said:
Grumfutock said:
This banter has made me wonder. How many did we kill capturing the Empire? I am thinking war of invasions, putting down rebellions, imported disease, mistreatment etc. Must be quiet a figure?
What bks - nearly all of them would have died anyway and if they hadn't been fighting the British they would have been fighting the French or each other. I can't stand bloody liberals.For real genocide you need serious state backed nutters, like Stalin, Hitler and Mao, and if you think that the same thing is happening in Rotherham you are deluded. I was there and I can tell you, Spain under Franco was not a bad place.
cardigankid said:
What bks - nearly all of them would have died anyway and if they hadn't been fighting the British they would have been fighting the French or each other. I can't stand bloody liberals.
For real genocide you need serious state backed nutters, like Stalin, Hitler and Mao, and if you think that the same thing is happening in Rotherham you are deluded. I was there and I can tell you, Spain under Franco was not a bad place.
Apparently you are clueless on British history. We invented the concentration camp you muppet. You obviously were in Spain for the war, totally different story and place.ks - nearly all of them would have died anyway and if they hadn't been fighting the British they would have been fighting the French or each other. I can't stand bloody liberals.For real genocide you need serious state backed nutters, like Stalin, Hitler and Mao, and if you think that the same thing is happening in Rotherham you are deluded. I was there and I can tell you, Spain under Franco was not a bad place.
I have been called a lot of things on PH but never a liberal, very amusing.
Grumfutock said:
Apparently you are clueless on British history. We invented the concentration camp you muppet. You obviously were in Spain for the war, totally different story and place.
I have been called a lot of things on PH but never a liberal, very amusing.
I believe you are incorrect in your assumption.I have been called a lot of things on PH but never a liberal, very amusing.
The closest thing to the 'Concentration Camp' that everyone first thinks of was pioneered in the USA, either in the Civil war, if you are talking starvation and deliberate neglect(Camp Sumter), or in the invasion of the Phillipines.
The British version was designed to 'concentrate the local population'. It didn't work well, and many guards also died due to lack of 'public hygiene' AIUI.
FF
Fat Fairy said:
Grumfutock said:
Apparently you are clueless on British history. We invented the concentration camp you muppet. You obviously were in Spain for the war, totally different story and place.
I have been called a lot of things on PH but never a liberal, very amusing.
I believe you are incorrect in your assumption.I have been called a lot of things on PH but never a liberal, very amusing.
The closest thing to the 'Concentration Camp' that everyone first thinks of was pioneered in the USA, either in the Civil war, if you are talking starvation and deliberate neglect(Camp Sumter), or in the invasion of the Phillipines.
The British version was designed to 'concentrate the local population'. It didn't work well, and many guards also died due to lack of 'public hygiene' AIUI.
FF
My whole point was that Britain must have been responsible for a great number of deaths outside of warfare, i.e. famine, disease etc as it built up the empire and I wondered how that stacked up against the likes of Hitler, Stalin. I was not talking about those tyrants systematic approach to slaughter.
Grumfutock said:
Thank you for telling me what I meant. However I will correct you, the 1st use, term and what is commonly accepted as the first "concentration camps" were built by us in the 2nd Boer War. Camp Sumter was a POW camp, a badly run one, but a POW camp. There was nothing new in the concept, the 1st one being built in England at Norman Cross in 1790's to deal with the Napoleonic wars.
My whole point was that Britain must have been responsible for a great number of deaths outside of warfare, i.e. famine, disease etc as it built up the empire and I wondered how that stacked up against the likes of Hitler, Stalin. I was not talking about those tyrants systematic approach to slaughter.
I did not tell you what you meant. I said I thought you were incorrect.My whole point was that Britain must have been responsible for a great number of deaths outside of warfare, i.e. famine, disease etc as it built up the empire and I wondered how that stacked up against the likes of Hitler, Stalin. I was not talking about those tyrants systematic approach to slaughter.
Camp Sumter was a POW camp, but it was not badly run, it was deliberately ran so. The camp commander (Henry Wirz) was later executed for murder (The charges against him were for 'combining, confederating, and conspiring, together with John H. Winder, Richard B. Winder, Joseph [Isaiah H.] White, W. S. Winder, R. R. Stevenson, and others unknown, to injure the health and destroy the lives of soldiers in the military service of the United States', and for 'Murder, in violation of the laws and customs of war'. The 13 murders committed by Wirz personally were by revolver (specifications 1, 3, 4), by physically stamping and kicking the victim (specification 2), and by confining prisoners in stocks (specifications 5, 6), by beating a prisoner with a revolver (specification 13) and by chaining prisoners together (specification 7). All murders occurred in 1864.
Wirz was also charged with ordering guards to fire on prisoners with muskets (specification 8, 9, 10, 12), and to have dogs attack escaped prisoners (specification 11).[10] Wirz was found guilty of all charges except the murder in specification 4.[11], charges gleaned from Wikipedia)
Also, just because something is generally accepted, it doesn't mean it is so. The US ran a rather dirty war in the Phillipines in the 19th century, including what could be termed concentration camps. Many returning soldiers spoke out on their return, but were ignored.
The prison camp at Norman Cross was 'Intended to be a model depot providing the most humane treatment of prisoners of war.' It held a maximum of 6272 prisoners, many of whom lived 'on parole' in Peterborough. Some married local women. They were well fed, when they were not gambling their food rations away.
Finally, yes, GB has indeed been responsible for many wars and unnecessary deaths. No more than any other power of the times I would imagine.
Fat Fairy said:
Finally, yes, GB has indeed been responsible for many wars and unnecessary deaths. No more than any other power of the times I would imagine.
And yet it had the greatest empire by size ever? I would suspect the body count, and once again I stress, apart from war fighting, must of been bigger than everyone else.
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