Missouri Riots

[dudleybloke]

In a competitive job market like what exists these days the main barrier to them being competitive is a lack of qualifications.

So the solution is get some qualifications.
there are many ways for them to get free adult education, if they didn't make use of the chances they had in school its their fault.

I suppose your going to blame someone not even having a high school diploma a cultural issues too.

[paranoid airbag]

dudleybloke said:

I suppose your going to blame someone not even having a high school diploma a cultural issues too.

Well is it genetic then? Unless you're talking about the soul the magical sky fairy gave them, we're all out of "things known to affect human behaviour". Maybe diet. If you're going to argue genes... good luck, I'll be running away from that conversation very fast.

Interestingly, the reason I got a degree from, let's say one of the top four universities in the country? I applied there. The only reason I applied was a friend convincing me. Without that white, middle class friend, I wouldn't have applied, because no matter how smart I was I would never have seen myself getting in.

So... that does sort of sounds like a culture thing to me, actually. Admittedly, as previously discussed, we can't conclude much from a sample size of one.

Edited by paranoid airbag on Wednesday 20th August 15:12

[dudleybloke]

So if you can do it why not them.

And regards the high school diploma.
Its not like they had to choose to go to high school it's compulsory.

[unrepentant]

alfaman said:

I have to think 'victim mentality' has had a lot to do with lack of success. Slavery was ended over 150? Years ago and equal rights were enshrined at least a generation or 2 ago...

How come immigrants to the US from countries such as Vietnam, china, Philippines etc seem to be much more successful from a standing start less than 40 years ago without the benefit of citizenship, little cultural understanding and not being able to speak good English ( OK .. some may do..) or having a US education...

Seem to have more success than many in the Afro-American community?

OK. Let's consider that. So a generation ago (in living memory for a great many people) African Americans were legally segregated in many areas. They weren't allowed to eat or drink or ride a bus with white folks, they weren't even allowed to use the same toilet. Think about that because to most Britons that should seem both abhorrent and almost unbelievable. Then we had the civil rights act of 1964 and things started to change. Amongst the things that didn't start to change is the attitude of many whites who had been bought up to believe that the "negro" was dirty and inferior and unfit to mix with them or their families.

Now, back then when "coloreds" were segregated they generally lived in the worst areas, usually in abject poverty and racism was literally institutionalized so most of them had the worst jobs if they could get a job at all. Their children received inferior public funded education so their prospects were severely reduced from birth.

So your starting point is a community that is segregated, living in the worst most run down areas, poor, discriminated against and poorly educated. What do you think happened next? You think someone flipped a light switch and everything was great? The reality is that social mobility takes time in the best of circumstances, in circumstances where you have ingrained, institutionally endorsed hatred of a person because of the colour of their skin it takes a lot longer.

The reality is that black folks didn't all up and move to Martha's Vineyard, they continued to live in the same run down areas they had lived in, their kids continued to be educated in the same cash starved public schools, they continued to be unable to get good jobs or afford healthcare and they continued (and continue) to be the subject of appalling racism.

[paranoid airbag]

dudleybloke said:

So if you can do it why not them.

And regards the high school diploma.
Its not like they had to choose to go to high school it's compulsory.

Did you read my post? Of course not, stupid question, not entirely sure you can read. The answer "why not them" is very clearly stated in it.

[Biscuit dunker]

unrepentant said:

alfaman said:

I have to think 'victim mentality' has had a lot to do with lack of success. Slavery was ended over 150? Years ago and equal rights were enshrined at least a generation or 2 ago...

How come immigrants to the US from countries such as Vietnam, china, Philippines etc seem to be much more successful from a standing start less than 40 years ago without the benefit of citizenship, little cultural understanding and not being able to speak good English ( OK .. some may do..) or having a US education...

Seem to have more success than many in the Afro-American community?

OK. Let's consider that. So a generation ago (in living memory for a great many people) African Americans were legally segregated in many areas. They weren't allowed to eat or drink or ride a bus with white folks, they weren't even allowed to use the same toilet. Think about that because to most Britons that should seem both abhorrent and almost unbelievable. Then we had the civil rights act of 1964 and things started to change. Amongst the things that didn't start to change is the attitude of many whites who had been bought up to believe that the "negro" was dirty and inferior and unfit to mix with them or their families.

Now, back then when "coloreds" were segregated they generally lived in the worst areas, usually in abject poverty and racism was literally institutionalized so most of them had the worst jobs if they could get a job at all. Their children received inferior public funded education so their prospects were severely reduced from birth.

So your starting point is a community that is segregated, living in the worst most run down areas, poor, discriminated against and poorly educated. What do you think happened next? You think someone flipped a light switch and everything was great? The reality is that social mobility takes time in the best of circumstances, in circumstances where you have ingrained, institutionally endorsed hatred of a person because of the colour of their skin it takes a lot longer.

The reality is that black folks didn't all up and move to Martha's Vineyard, they continued to live in the same run down areas they had lived in, their kids continued to be educated in the same cash starved public schools, they continued to be unable to get good jobs or afford healthcare and they continued (and continue) to be the subject of appalling racism.

Excellent post. Combine this with earlier comments regarding the devolved US tax system where the tax take from your community funds your community and you have a system that's almost (is?) designed to ensure those people (black,white, hispanic, chinese et al) in poorer areas stay just where they are (that wouldn't happen in an advanced western society now would it?!). Only the most determined leave. The remainder are stuck with poor jobs and low aspirations which are then instilled into the next generation and away we go again...

[dudleybloke]

I wish you would drop this Obama thing. I only used it as an example as they have a prime role model for getting an education.
He managed to get the top job and he's not the only one who's found success through education.
They also have sporting stars, most of whom have a degree level education.

I admire your achievements at getting to a top uni, you obviously worked hard and its now paying off for you.

I never had the chance to go to higher education full time. Needed to work as we were that skint we had to save up to be poor.
But I got fed up with despite having skills not getting good wedge because of lack of qualifications so did evening classes off my own back paid for by myself and got some paper.

So I would ask you not to belittle my educational standing as it may not be red brick but its 100% my own effort.

[Randy Winkman]

dudleybloke said:

I never had the chance to go to higher education full time. Needed to work as we were that skint we had to save up to be poor.
But I got fed up with despite having skills not getting good wedge because of lack of qualifications so did evening classes off my own back paid for by myself and got some paper.

Well done. But you clearly recognise the significance outside influences. E.g. Social, cultural, family etc. Some people seem think that we all exist separately from those.

[dudleybloke]

And what I'm getting at is the cycle of underachievement needs breaking and pussyfooting round the issues because of "cultural issues" only serves to keep people in the situation they're in.

But what to do?

If governments try to help its classed as meddeling but if left to their own devices they say the governments ignoring their problems.

Edited by dudleybloke on Wednesday 20th August 16:55

[Jimbeaux]

I appreciate the detailed and thoughtful discussions being carried out here, thorough and intelligent. I will say, however, that there are aspects of some of what is going on that is impossible to convey or understand without first hand experience. Not an experience from a visit but by living where certain places are. I have that experience. Being married to a minority for 20 years also gives me another perspective. That said, I am going to leave you all to it and concetrate on the ISIS thread. It appears this one is starting to decay into the usual insults and name calling by the usual suspects anyway, a good time to leave. BTW, don't visit Chicago anytime soon(certain parts). Even though the news is silent, about 12-20 young blacks are shot there each weekend(not by cops BTW). Good day.

[paranoid airbag]

dudleybloke said:

I wish you would drop this Obama thing. I only used it as an example as they have a prime role model for getting an education.
He managed to get the top job and he's not the only one who's found success through education.
They also have sporting stars, most of whom have a degree level education.

I admire your achievements at getting to a top uni, you obviously worked hard and its now paying off for you.

I never had the chance to go to higher education full time. Needed to work as we were that skint we had to save up to be poor.
But I got fed up with despite having skills not getting good wedge because of lack of qualifications so did evening classes off my own back paid for by myself and got some paper.

So I would ask you not to belittle my educational standing as it may not be red brick but its 100% my own effort.

You've just answered the very question you asked me: if I could get to a top uni why couldn't you? Because you're not me, you didn't have what I had (for which I know, I was exceptionally lucky). They don't have what I had, they might not have what you had. Some working class Americans don't even have free evenings in which to go to classes, and are they really going to spending gas money (the parts of the states I've been to, even short distances aren't walkable unless you like the feel of an SUV tyre on your face, so nothing is truly free) for something which might end up useless? As I'm sure you're aware, qualifications boost your chances but they don't guarantee anything, and being poor doesn't lend itself to speculative investments.

You want me to stop belittling you? Fine. I admit, I tend to have a warped expectation of people at times, and become frustrated and rude when those expectations aren't met - for that I apologise.

But in return, I ask you do not belittle others, by telling them to "just try harder", or pointing at a single bloke who's done well and claiming that means there are no excuses. That's like telling someone with depression to just cheer up - it doesn't work, as no end of comedians have demonstrated. Nor does Obama, who has barely any more relevance to them than he has to me.

I can understand you be frustrated by the cycle of failure, and that you really do want people to do well. But please, have enough respect for them to believe them when they say the easy things have been tried already.

[Tonberry]

Jimbeaux said:

I appreciate the detailed and thoughtful discussions being carried out here, thorough and intelligent. I will say, however, that there are aspects of some of what is going on that is impossible to convey or understand without first hand experience. Not an experience from a visit but by living where certain places are. I have that experience. Being married to a minority for 20 years also gives me another perspective. That said, I am going to leave you all to it and concetrate on the ISIS thread. It appears this one is starting to decay into the usual insults and name calling by the usual suspects anyway, a good time to leave. BTW, don't visit Chicago anytime soon(certain parts). Even though the news is silent, about 12-20 young blacks are shot there each weekend(not by cops BTW). Good day.

Oi, where do you think you're going?

I still haven't told you about my struggle against discrimination to reach the career position I'm currently in or how I can't walk down the street in my own Country with my lovely white girlfirend without becoming a side show for the local white folk.

We all need to change.

[dudleybloke]

As you say the easy answers wont work.
But since the start of the civil rights movements black leaders have told their followers that the key to success is education.
If the people who managed to unite and motivate all those millions failed to get the message through that the way for empowerment is to prove they are equal, I don't know what will solve it.

Other than comedy.

Or Bacon.

[LucreLout]

unrepentant said:

OK. Let's consider that. So a generation ago (in living memory for a great many people) African Americans were legally segregated in many areas. They weren't allowed to eat or drink or ride a bus with white folks, they weren't even allowed to use the same toilet. Think about that because to most Britons that should seem both abhorrent and almost unbelievable. Then we had the civil rights act of 1964 and things started to change. Amongst the things that didn't start to change is the attitude of many whites who had been bought up to believe that the "negro" was dirty and inferior and unfit to mix with them or their families.

Now, back then when "coloreds" were segregated they generally lived in the worst areas, usually in abject poverty and racism was literally institutionalized so most of them had the worst jobs if they could get a job at all. Their children received inferior public funded education so their prospects were severely reduced from birth.

So your starting point is a community that is segregated, living in the worst most run down areas, poor, discriminated against and poorly educated. What do you think happened next? You think someone flipped a light switch and everything was great? The reality is that social mobility takes time in the best of circumstances, in circumstances where you have ingrained, institutionally endorsed hatred of a person because of the colour of their skin it takes a lot longer.

The reality is that black folks didn't all up and move to Martha's Vineyard, they continued to live in the same run down areas they had lived in, their kids continued to be educated in the same cash starved public schools, they continued to be unable to get good jobs or afford healthcare and they continued (and continue) to be the subject of appalling racism.

So there are no black's in expensive areas and no poor white communities not similarly aflame? Really?!

[Biscuit dunker]

LucreLout said:

So there are no black's in expensive areas and no poor white communities not similarly aflame? Really?!

Statistically speaking everything is on a bell curve by which I mean you'll find examples of all types of people of all colours spread across the spectrum from extremely poor to extremely wealthy. The point is where the does the mean of the group in question lie? I haven't looked up a reference for you but you'll find, without much searching, that the af am community is much worse of by most measures.

[unrepentant]

LucreLout said:

So there are no black's in expensive areas and no poor white communities not similarly aflame? Really?!

I don't really understand your point. Do you have one?

[LucreLout]

unrepentant said:

I don't really understand your point. Do you have one?

The point is the black community aren't victims of the white community, what they are is victims of themselves.

[ATG]

LucreLout said:

The point is the black community aren't victims of the white community, what they are is victims of themselves.

It's not a case of one or the other. The preconceptions are on both sides and both determine the outcome.

[unrepentant]

LucreLout said:

unrepentant said:

I don't really understand your point. Do you have one?

The point is the black community aren't victims of the white community, what they are is victims of themselves.

So you disregarded all the points I made about segregation, institutionalised racism, poverty etc. and that was your conclusion? Jesus wept. The black community were segregated and treated as second class citizens well into the second half of the 20th Century and somehow in your tiny mind that's their own fault!

[LucreLout]

unrepentant said:

So you disregarded all the points I made about segregation, institutionalised racism, poverty etc. and that was your conclusion? Jesus wept. The black community were segregated and treated as second class citizens well into the second half of the 20th Century and somehow in your tiny mind that's their own fault!

Are you genuinely this hard of thinking or do you prefer not to see the truth?

Almost none of those rioting or looting were even born,then. Half of all black people alive weren't even born, then. It. Is. No. Excuse.

The failings of anyone under 50 are their own. Black, white, whatever. Its not race, its you.