US journalist beheaded by ISIS...
Discussion
fesuvious said:
If a Muslim cannot say, clearly they would not prefer to live under Shariah, or within a Caliphate then whilst we may accept they wholeheartedly condemn IS' methods, they do not comdemn the stated ultimate aim.
And, in my opinion that is something many many 'westerners' or simply those that prefer a free society under democracy need to understand.
It also would mean that the whole 'religion of peace and tolerance' line is, well, fairly busted. Simply on the strength of the Islamic desire to impose, or live within a Caliphate, or impose Shariah in part, prior to a Caliphate.
We are discussing stated aim here, as well as discussing the barbaric and atrocious methods IS are using to achieve it.
The same would go for the various violent attempts to impose some flavours of democracy (and be just as meaningless).And, in my opinion that is something many many 'westerners' or simply those that prefer a free society under democracy need to understand.
It also would mean that the whole 'religion of peace and tolerance' line is, well, fairly busted. Simply on the strength of the Islamic desire to impose, or live within a Caliphate, or impose Shariah in part, prior to a Caliphate.
We are discussing stated aim here, as well as discussing the barbaric and atrocious methods IS are using to achieve it.
To me the overriding point that westerners fail to get is this...
Muslims believe that "God's Law" massively outweighs and supercedes "Man's Law". Indeed "Man's Law" is almost of no consequence.
Western Democracy is fundamentally "Man's Law".
They do not feel they need a 'voting system' to create Man's Law as all of the guidance they'll ever need was written down long ago. Its just a case of interpretation from there on for them and they have people in place to give them that interpretation.
The seperation of State from Church is not something devout Muslims will ever accept but we in the West take for granted. You will never reconcile the 2 ways of life so why even try?
Muslims believe that "God's Law" massively outweighs and supercedes "Man's Law". Indeed "Man's Law" is almost of no consequence.
Western Democracy is fundamentally "Man's Law".
They do not feel they need a 'voting system' to create Man's Law as all of the guidance they'll ever need was written down long ago. Its just a case of interpretation from there on for them and they have people in place to give them that interpretation.
The seperation of State from Church is not something devout Muslims will ever accept but we in the West take for granted. You will never reconcile the 2 ways of life so why even try?
Countdown said:
I did say 'devout' and was clearly talking about Muslims in the Middle East.Telegraph said:
Muslims have an obligation to report any information they have on the killer of John Foley to the police, an adviser to the Muslim COuncil of Britain has said. Sir Iqbal Sacranie said:
"Any person who may know the perpetrators of that evil act has a duty to report to the law enforcement agencies so that not only the whole issue of justice should take place but also that as a deterrent those who commit such acts will not escape justice."
"Any person who may know the perpetrators of that evil act has a duty to report to the law enforcement agencies so that not only the whole issue of justice should take place but also that as a deterrent those who commit such acts will not escape justice."
Grumfutock said:
-Z- said:
As a Iraqi Sunni Muslim I sincerely hope that ISIS gets smashed to pieces with no mercy.
I would back a law stating that any pro-ISIS statement made by anyone in the UK is an act of treason and punished appropriately.
This is how every muslim I know feels both Sunni and Shia.
ISIS seems to be very cult like in its draw on certain people. Cults both evil and good have been around for a long time and have afflicted people of all religions.
For those of you condemning muslims, could I just remind you that barely a generation ago Hitler managed to convince many educated Europeans to commit atrocious acts on millions of civilians, not even having to use religion as an excuse! Many 90 year old German, Japanese or Russian males alive today probably partook in some evil act as bad as what ISIS is committing- think about that.
On another point - that that muslim leaders are not speaking out against ISIS take a look at the following :
A Grand Mufti is the highest Sunni Muslim authority in a particular area.
http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-top-cleric-blasts-qaed...
[b] Riyadh (AFP) - Saudi Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh on Tuesday blasted Al-Qaeda and Islamic State jihadists as "enemy number one" of Islam, in a statement issued in Riyadh.
"The ideas of extremism, radicalism and terrorism... have nothing to do with Islam and (their proponents) are the enemy number one of Islam," the kingdom's top cleric said.
He cited jihadists from the Islamic State, which has declared a "caliphate" straddling large parts of Iraq and Syria, and the global Al-Qaeda terror network.
"Muslims are the main victims of this extremism, as shown by crimes committed by the so-called Islamic State, Al-Qaeda and groups linked to them," the mufti said, quoting a verse in the Koran urging the "killing" of people who do deeds harmful to Islam.
His stance reflects the Saudi clerical community's hostility towards IS jihadists, known for their brutality...... [/b]
Egypt's Grand Mufti: http://www.aawsat.net/2014/08/article55335380
Lebanons Grand Mufti: [b] “What is happening in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Libya is an enormous tragedy, and the harm we are doing to ourselves is more than what the Israelis can do in Gaza and Palestine.”
He strongly criticized the fundamentalist group Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria’s (ISIS) practices against the Christians of Iraq.
“How is the Christian in Mosul and other areas forced to leave his religion and his home, and how is his life and his family threatened?” Daryan wondered, pledging to show solidarity and support to Christians oppressed by extremist Muslims." [/b]
But because it doesn't turn up on the Daily Mail website it apparently never happened according to some on here
Outstanding post and confirms what many Muslim friends in different countries are telling me, well except one but he like to wind me up I would back a law stating that any pro-ISIS statement made by anyone in the UK is an act of treason and punished appropriately.
This is how every muslim I know feels both Sunni and Shia.
ISIS seems to be very cult like in its draw on certain people. Cults both evil and good have been around for a long time and have afflicted people of all religions.
For those of you condemning muslims, could I just remind you that barely a generation ago Hitler managed to convince many educated Europeans to commit atrocious acts on millions of civilians, not even having to use religion as an excuse! Many 90 year old German, Japanese or Russian males alive today probably partook in some evil act as bad as what ISIS is committing- think about that.
On another point - that that muslim leaders are not speaking out against ISIS take a look at the following :
A Grand Mufti is the highest Sunni Muslim authority in a particular area.
http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-top-cleric-blasts-qaed...
[b] Riyadh (AFP) - Saudi Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh on Tuesday blasted Al-Qaeda and Islamic State jihadists as "enemy number one" of Islam, in a statement issued in Riyadh.
"The ideas of extremism, radicalism and terrorism... have nothing to do with Islam and (their proponents) are the enemy number one of Islam," the kingdom's top cleric said.
He cited jihadists from the Islamic State, which has declared a "caliphate" straddling large parts of Iraq and Syria, and the global Al-Qaeda terror network.
"Muslims are the main victims of this extremism, as shown by crimes committed by the so-called Islamic State, Al-Qaeda and groups linked to them," the mufti said, quoting a verse in the Koran urging the "killing" of people who do deeds harmful to Islam.
His stance reflects the Saudi clerical community's hostility towards IS jihadists, known for their brutality...... [/b]
Egypt's Grand Mufti: http://www.aawsat.net/2014/08/article55335380
Lebanons Grand Mufti: [b] “What is happening in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Libya is an enormous tragedy, and the harm we are doing to ourselves is more than what the Israelis can do in Gaza and Palestine.”
He strongly criticized the fundamentalist group Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria’s (ISIS) practices against the Christians of Iraq.
“How is the Christian in Mosul and other areas forced to leave his religion and his home, and how is his life and his family threatened?” Daryan wondered, pledging to show solidarity and support to Christians oppressed by extremist Muslims." [/b]
But because it doesn't turn up on the Daily Mail website it apparently never happened according to some on here
Well done sir.
The hand-wringing muslimic raygun brigade are pretty clueless and out of touch if they think mainstream muslims aren't as outraged at these ISIS lunatics. They are against mainstream muslims as well as anyone else who disagrees with their extremist methodology.
I don't know.. I watched the video and it looks somewhat suspicious. If you are going to the extreme of taking someone's head off (surely difficult to fake) then why is this part cut out and they only show a still picture at the end? Especially suspicious as they were recording in HD with high quality audio which is more than enough to get the desired reaction, the way this was done doesn't make sense if you are sending "A message to America". Surely this is the most brutal part and the most unsettling and terrifying for civilised nations, for me it is certainly. Cutting someone with a knife and making look very realistic isn't difficult. I've been on a few film sets in Hollywood and the SFX crews can do things like this far more complicated than this without much effort at all. It's also far easier to get the nation behind you when it is one of your own being brutalised than someone poor soul they have no connection with from the troubled region.
Have ISIS claimed responsibility for the video beyond what is said in the video? Could this be a way for those with vested interests to force the usual nations to return to Iraq? I know conspiracy theories are always out there and people claiming them pointed in the general direction of the local tin foil hat shop, but this doesn't look right and faking it would be VERY easy to pull off.
If it did in fact happen, it's a crying shame a man that is only there to document the stories met such an end. If it didn't happen however I suppose we'll never know and the conspiracy theories are easily mocked and brushed aside whether legitimate or not.
- "All warfare is based on deception". - Sun Tzu
From Redit:
[b] 1) Zero fear and zero emotion on the part of the victim and the aggressor. He doesn't look or sound like he's about to get a knife zigzagging through his esophagus. When he "blames" his brother, there's zero emotion. No way anyone would be able to just read those lines so casually. At 3:00, when he says "I died that day John", with the pauses and everything... he sounds more like an actor trying hard to persuade the viewer rather than someone who is speaking their last words to their family. Watch it and think about it. And the british gentleman terrorist is coming across like they're on the 7th take of this video. No allah akbar. No highly charged vocal timber, which is 100% the norm in all other beheadings ive seen since Nick Berg.
2) Incredible sound engineering: Both the victim and the gentleman terrorist are miked, and the sound is really well produced. This is professional audio engineering. No other video out of syria and iraq comes near the video/audio quality of this vid. And there are a LOT of videos coming out of Syria and Iraq.
3) No other terrorists around? If there were others around, as is ALWAYS the case in beheading videos, they would be all be shouting "Allahu Akbar" the SECOND the knife touched the throat. Notice the dead silence, which to me implies that they're alone, which to me implies that there is no f
king way he wouldn't fight the gentleman terrorist with small knife. (small by beheading standards).
3) Where's the blood? Not only is there no blood after 6 or 7 saws against the neck when blood almost ALWAYS gushes immediately after 1-2 saws. Also, in the final shot, the blood on the ground is a mere trickle compared to the giant 3-foot in diameter pool of blood almost ALWAYS visible around the gaping neckwound. Another thing: At the very end, when the gentleman terrorist is showing off the next victim, his hands are perfectly clean, like he just got back from a manicure. No blood from the beheading he presumably just performed.
5) They leave out the best part??? The most terrifying part of a beheading video is the part completely left out of this video. I know why. Because it's also the hardest part to fake. And this video is 100% fake. Fake fake fake. And, in comparison to the many dozens of videos Ive seen since Nick Berg, is wildly different from all of them.
So what happened to James Foley? First of all, there is no more James Foley. There is one of three possible scenarios:
1) He has joined the deep ranks of the CIA. Black Ops. Men In Black kinda st. Like Tommy Lee Jones sitting Will Smith down on a park bench and telling him that he's going to disappear. No more family or friends or anything. He's been reporting from the middle east for years and has been kidnapped before. He probably knows a lot about them. So the CIA made him an offer. First make this video so we can go back and blow Iraq up again, but we need you so you're life is over.
2) Same scenario as #1 but with Mossad.
3) He's become one of them. He's been embedded there so long, and has spent enough time with them for him to hate the US, and feel sympathy for his captors. And his captors know that he can help them. So they're keeping him alive, but "killing him off" with this fake propaganda vid.
Or maybe it's something else. But I'll tell you this for sure: his head is firmly attached to his body. No doubts whatsoever.[/b]
Have ISIS claimed responsibility for the video beyond what is said in the video? Could this be a way for those with vested interests to force the usual nations to return to Iraq? I know conspiracy theories are always out there and people claiming them pointed in the general direction of the local tin foil hat shop, but this doesn't look right and faking it would be VERY easy to pull off.
If it did in fact happen, it's a crying shame a man that is only there to document the stories met such an end. If it didn't happen however I suppose we'll never know and the conspiracy theories are easily mocked and brushed aside whether legitimate or not.
- "All warfare is based on deception". - Sun Tzu
From Redit:
[b] 1) Zero fear and zero emotion on the part of the victim and the aggressor. He doesn't look or sound like he's about to get a knife zigzagging through his esophagus. When he "blames" his brother, there's zero emotion. No way anyone would be able to just read those lines so casually. At 3:00, when he says "I died that day John", with the pauses and everything... he sounds more like an actor trying hard to persuade the viewer rather than someone who is speaking their last words to their family. Watch it and think about it. And the british gentleman terrorist is coming across like they're on the 7th take of this video. No allah akbar. No highly charged vocal timber, which is 100% the norm in all other beheadings ive seen since Nick Berg.
2) Incredible sound engineering: Both the victim and the gentleman terrorist are miked, and the sound is really well produced. This is professional audio engineering. No other video out of syria and iraq comes near the video/audio quality of this vid. And there are a LOT of videos coming out of Syria and Iraq.
3) No other terrorists around? If there were others around, as is ALWAYS the case in beheading videos, they would be all be shouting "Allahu Akbar" the SECOND the knife touched the throat. Notice the dead silence, which to me implies that they're alone, which to me implies that there is no f
king way he wouldn't fight the gentleman terrorist with small knife. (small by beheading standards).3) Where's the blood? Not only is there no blood after 6 or 7 saws against the neck when blood almost ALWAYS gushes immediately after 1-2 saws. Also, in the final shot, the blood on the ground is a mere trickle compared to the giant 3-foot in diameter pool of blood almost ALWAYS visible around the gaping neckwound. Another thing: At the very end, when the gentleman terrorist is showing off the next victim, his hands are perfectly clean, like he just got back from a manicure. No blood from the beheading he presumably just performed.
5) They leave out the best part??? The most terrifying part of a beheading video is the part completely left out of this video. I know why. Because it's also the hardest part to fake. And this video is 100% fake. Fake fake fake. And, in comparison to the many dozens of videos Ive seen since Nick Berg, is wildly different from all of them.
So what happened to James Foley? First of all, there is no more James Foley. There is one of three possible scenarios:
1) He has joined the deep ranks of the CIA. Black Ops. Men In Black kinda s
t. Like Tommy Lee Jones sitting Will Smith down on a park bench and telling him that he's going to disappear. No more family or friends or anything. He's been reporting from the middle east for years and has been kidnapped before. He probably knows a lot about them. So the CIA made him an offer. First make this video so we can go back and blow Iraq up again, but we need you so you're life is over.2) Same scenario as #1 but with Mossad.
3) He's become one of them. He's been embedded there so long, and has spent enough time with them for him to hate the US, and feel sympathy for his captors. And his captors know that he can help them. So they're keeping him alive, but "killing him off" with this fake propaganda vid.
Or maybe it's something else. But I'll tell you this for sure: his head is firmly attached to his body. No doubts whatsoever.[/b]
Puggit said:
Telegraph said:
Muslims have an obligation to report any information they have on the killer of John Foley to the police, an adviser to the Muslim COuncil of Britain has said. Sir Iqbal Sacranie said:
"Any person who may know the perpetrators of that evil act has a duty to report to the law enforcement agencies so that not only the whole issue of justice should take place but also that as a deterrent those who commit such acts will not escape justice."
"Any person who may know the perpetrators of that evil act has a duty to report to the law enforcement agencies so that not only the whole issue of justice should take place but also that as a deterrent those who commit such acts will not escape justice."
This is what we need - mainstream muslims to be involved in weeding out these guys. Thats why people need to educate themselves and differentiate between mainstream islam and what these nutters follow.
Justices said:
Reddit
I was under the impression the full video is available just not on the likes of Liveleak etc as they do not want to be seen to be promoting ISIS savagery.From the one that is on Liveleak I'd say the guy is seriously pumping himself up towards the end of the brits little speech.
fesuvious said:
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
If a Muslim cannot say, clearly they would not prefer to live under Shariah, or within a Caliphate then whilst we may accept they wholeheartedly condemn IS' methods, they do not comdemn the stated ultimate aim.
And, in my opinion that is something many many 'westerners' or simply those that prefer a free society under democracy need to understand.
It also would mean that the whole 'religion of peace and tolerance' line is, well, fairly busted. Simply on the strength of the Islamic desire to impose, or live within a Caliphate, or impose Shariah in part, prior to a Caliphate.
We are discussing stated aim here, as well as discussing the barbaric and atrocious methods IS are using to achieve it.
The same would go for the various violent attempts to impose some flavours of democracy (and be just as meaningless).And, in my opinion that is something many many 'westerners' or simply those that prefer a free society under democracy need to understand.
It also would mean that the whole 'religion of peace and tolerance' line is, well, fairly busted. Simply on the strength of the Islamic desire to impose, or live within a Caliphate, or impose Shariah in part, prior to a Caliphate.
We are discussing stated aim here, as well as discussing the barbaric and atrocious methods IS are using to achieve it.
I never fail to be surprised that any follower of Islam (or apologist for) can never stand up for what they want, in brazen fashion.
But then I guess to say
'yes, we want ultimately to, as per the teaching of the Koran to impose a global caliphate, and would dearly love to live under shariah.'
Might be a little awkward, although it might give some Westerners who enjoy democracy the chance to say 'oh, thanks for your brazen honesty, at least we might be able to take an appropriate view of Islam now.'
The poster above, who talks of Mans Law, vs Allahs Law is spot-on.
However, within Islam it is a duty to convert those who do not believe. And let us not forget the options open to those who choose to remain unbelievers;
The Jizya (=monstrous tax, paid in ceremonious and degrading fashion)
Convert to Islam
or, what was the third one...I forget..... Could somebody help me?
Islam wants and desires a Caliphate. IS are following the Koran, to the letter. And even 'moderate Muslims still could not come out and say they would prefer Western democracy to Shariah.
So again, whilst condemnation of IS acts is appropriate, its masks the underlying tension between religions, and the ultimate fight between Islam and its ultimate aim, vs the desire of a great portion of the planet not to believe, and not to want to live under anything but a free democratic society.
And to respond with a critic of any violent or invasive imposition of democracy requires a whole new thread. And I am not saying I agree with forced imposition of democracy either.
fesuvious said:
Whenever I have raised this with any muslim the only response I ever get it an attack either on Christianity or Democracy.
Provide examplesfesuvious said:
I never fail to be surprised that any follower of Islam (or apologist for) can never stand up for what they want, in brazen fashion.
A lot of muslims believe in what they want to from Islam - just as other religions. Recently I heard the term 'culturally Jewish but dont believe in god'. Thought that was a good term to describe a lot of other people too.fesuvious said:
'yes, we want ultimately to, as per the teaching of the Koran to impose a global caliphate, and would dearly love to live under shariah.'
I wouldn't.fesuvious said:
However, within Islam it is a duty to convert those who do not believe. And let us not forget the options open to those who choose to remain unbelievers;
Err.. yeah right. Am I bad muslim then cos I don't try to convert my fellow British countrymen? I'd be a pretty bad example though for them to follow.fesuvious said:
Whenever I have raised this with any muslim the only response I ever get it an attack either on Christianity or Democracy.
This is an easy one.In the US right now a black guy was just killed/murdered by the Police having (possibly) just committed a crime.
You can tell the black community till you're red in the face that the man shot was no good but still they'll riot against the Police.
When you 'get' that lack of condemnation from the black community towards their own criminals you'll also get the Muslim lack of moderate Muslims condemnation of radical Muslims actions.
s1962a said:
Err.. yeah right. Am I bad muslim then cos I don't try to convert my fellow British countrymen? I'd be a pretty bad example though for them to follow.
You probably are It could be noted that christianity was pretty toxic when it reached these shores, we have a tendency to mellow folk. fesuvious said:
KareemK said:
fesuvious said:
Whenever I have raised this with any muslim the only response I ever get it an attack either on Christianity or Democracy.
This is an easy one.In the US right now a black guy was just killed/murdered by the Police having (possibly) just committed a crime.
You can tell the black community till you're red in the face that the man shot was no good but still they'll riot against the Police.
When you 'get' that lack of condemnation you'll also get the Muslim lack of moderate Muslims condemnation of radical Muslims actions.
This is a little stronger than a black vs Police Racsim issue blown up to protest with a single state in the USA though.
This is a major incident, affecting numerous countries, and threatening the safety and security of millions of humans.
Not too mention witnessing the barbaric sub-human slaughter of innocents by a fanatical set of followers of Islam.
Its a smidge different
Perceived oppression over many years will make you feel that one barbaric act on your side doesn't amount to a 'hill of beans' when compared to the historical and ongoing barbaric acts being committed by the other side.
The next US built rocket that slams into a Gaza household killing women and children will reassert that viewpoint for the radicals.
It'll likely happen sometime today.
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