US journalist beheaded by ISIS...

US journalist beheaded by ISIS...

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Discussion

s1962a

5,265 posts

161 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
You still haven't provided any examples of these conversations you've had with muslims about the caliphate where they turn it into a tirade against christianity or democracy.

What you fail to understand is that mainstream Islam has nothing to do with the ideology that ISIS follow, and it is difficult for any mainstream muslim to comprehend the barbaric acts they are doing.


Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is.
If that's what you believe you'd be massively wrong. Most muslims want the same thing as everybody else (food/house/partner). In lesser developed societies / dictatorships etc, where these things aren't achievable in a "fair", "equitable", "democratic" manner they will follow whichever "Leader" promises them what they want.



Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Countdown said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is.
If that's what you believe you'd be massively wrong. Most muslims want the same thing as everybody else (food/house/partner). In lesser developed societies / dictatorships etc, where these things aren't achievable in a "fair", "equitable", "democratic" manner they will follow whichever "Leader" promises them what they want.
Once the lower rungs of Maslow have been satisfied, you don't believe Muslims want "non believers" to conform to an Islamic ethos? Do western Muslims look down at "non believers".

Islam's growth is on the ascendency IMO.

pork911

7,087 posts

182 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?
Adults still believing in Father Christmas. Other than the colour of the beard I haven't been able to discern any differences.

Only applies to believers, check.
Story passed down through the generations, check.
Bad things happen if you don't believe, check.
No physical proof whatsoever, check.


danjama

5,728 posts

141 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Going back to something being discussed at the start of the thread, but rarely touched on since, I'm of the opinion that the root cause of the Britons going to fight for this cause, is almost completely because of a lack of integration of Muslim and non Muslim people in this country. I had suspected this for a long time, but it is now certain in my mind, after a short period living in a majority Islamic community. After my time there, it is easy to see how the young and old alike can be so easily swept up by videos, readings and speeches of hate against the Western people. You see, there is nobody to contradict this view.

I have a vision of myself in primary school in Hackney. One of my best friends was a Muslim. But the school was hugely multicultural, and I had friends from all backgrounds. Now imagine you are at school and only among people who are like you. And they are told by their brothers and sisters and family and friends that they are in a war against Western/English people. Why would you not believe them? And this is how the it begins.

It will be harder and harder to differentiate the good Muslims from the bad, in years to come, as this generation grows older. Quite worrying really.

Yes, in my opinion, integration was the key. But i'm almost certain that ship has sailed now. It's hard to believe otherwise when you acknowledge the huge Islamic communities that exist in Britain.

Sorry if i'm just stating the obvious.

It's probably worth noting that I also had a very good friend, probably a best friend at one stage, in secondary school. As we entered sixth form, I believe he was 'radicalised' to some extent. He pushed away from the group of friends and dropped out of school to attend an 'accounting course' in Ilford. Then the trips to Pakistan became quite regular. I was always trying to meet up with him and catch up but he had none of it. I don't know how far he went, but I did hear he is married and still living local to where we went to school, so I hope he grew out of it. It wasn't a nice experience, overall.

pork911

7,087 posts

182 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?
Adults still believing in Father Christmas. Other than the colour of the beard I haven't been able to discern any differences.

Only applies to believers, check.
Story passed down through the generations, check.
Bad things happen if you don't believe, check.
No physical proof whatsoever, check.
And the problem is?

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Once the lower rungs of Maslow have been satisfied, you don't believe Muslims want "non believers" to conform to an Islamic ethos? Do western Muslims look down at "non believers".

Islam's growth is on the ascendency IMO.
Oh cripes Mermaid...not again!!!!

No I don't. As far as I can see religious fundamentalism is inversely proportional to where a person is on Maslow's pyramid.



s1962a

5,265 posts

161 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Countdown said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is.
If that's what you believe you'd be massively wrong. Most muslims want the same thing as everybody else (food/house/partner). In lesser developed societies / dictatorships etc, where these things aren't achievable in a "fair", "equitable", "democratic" manner they will follow whichever "Leader" promises them what they want.
Once the lower rungs of Maslow have been satisfied, you don't believe Muslims want "non believers" to conform to an Islamic ethos? Do western Muslims look down at "non believers".

Islam's growth is on the ascendency IMO.
What do you define as an islamic ethos?

I am a muslim, however I don't pray 5 times a day. I do fast though, and give to charity and I believe in living a life where I don't cheat people and I pay my taxes fairly. I also care about the suffering of people in the world, and believe in a creator. I do not want to live under any form of shariah law.

Is that the Islam I would want someone else to follow? I'm quite happy following what I believe on my own, why would I want anyone else to follow what I do or believe?

You could ask 100 muslims and get 100 different answers as to what Islam is to them. So what exactly is the Islamic ethos you think 'muslims want others to follow'?

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
pork911 said:
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?
Adults still believing in Father Christmas. Other than the colour of the beard I haven't been able to discern any differences.

Only applies to believers, check.
Story passed down through the generations, check.
Bad things happen if you don't believe, check.
No physical proof whatsoever, check.
And the problem is?
Have you seen all the bother the believers in different Father Christmas cause?

That is the problem...

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Just on a more general question and, I suppose, aimed at those who think that a "statistically significant" number of Muslims support ISIS and their beliefs....

Why do you think there hasn't been ANY support at all, from anybody, anywhere, for ISIS? Or people suggesting that US/UK involvement is wrong or inappropriate etc etc. ?

Zoobeef

6,004 posts

157 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Does this belong here?



JensenA

5,671 posts

229 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
KareemK said:
To me the overriding point that westerners fail to get is this...

Muslims believe that "God's Law" massively outweighs and supercedes "Man's Law". Indeed "Man's Law" is almost of no consequence.

Western Democracy is fundamentally "Man's Law".

They do not feel they need a 'voting system' to create Man's Law as all of the guidance they'll ever need was written down long ago. Its just a case of interpretation from there on for them and they have people in place to give them that interpretation.

The seperation of State from Church is not something devout Muslims will ever accept but we in the West take for granted. You will never reconcile the 2 ways of life so why even try?
Then those that think this way, need to leave our country, and go to live in a country that they feel happy in as it agrees with their religious beliefs.

pork911

7,087 posts

182 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?
Adults still believing in Father Christmas. Other than the colour of the beard I haven't been able to discern any differences.

Only applies to believers, check.
Story passed down through the generations, check.
Bad things happen if you don't believe, check.
No physical proof whatsoever, check.
And the problem is?
Have you seen all the bother the believers in different Father Christmas cause?

That is the problem...
people acting in problematic ways on the basis of their stupid beliefs is problematic - doesn't matter the flavour of those beliefs

-Z-

5,980 posts

205 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
fesuvious said:
So, KareemK, would you prefer to live under Shariah, within a Caliphate, or under Democracy in its current form?

Either answer is fine by me, so long as it is truthful
I'm not KareemK but I would answer: Neither- I would take the tax free benign dictatorship of the U.A.E. thanks wink

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
pork911 said:
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?
Adults still believing in Father Christmas. Other than the colour of the beard I haven't been able to discern any differences.

Only applies to believers, check.
Story passed down through the generations, check.
Bad things happen if you don't believe, check.
No physical proof whatsoever, check.
And the problem is?
Have you seen all the bother the believers in different Father Christmas cause?

That is the problem...
people acting in problematic ways on the basis of their stupid beliefs is problematic - doesn't matter the flavour of those beliefs
I agree completely. Adults killing each other just because you believe in the wrong Father Christmas? In 2014? Really?

dudleybloke

19,718 posts

185 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
If God/Allah is responsible for everything that happens then why do Muslims blame the west/USA for things?

Surely everything that happens is Allah's will unless the west/USA have more power than Allah?

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
dudleybloke said:
If God/Allah is responsible for everything that happens then why do Muslims blame the west/USA for things?

Surely everything that happens is Allah's will unless the west/USA have more power than Allah?
If God truly was omnipotent he'd just sort all this st out, he doesn't need people to do it for him...

-Z-

5,980 posts

205 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
Not sure if this has been mentioned but:

Why are news stations on TV/Radio not playing the mans voice? Surely widespread exposure may result in somebody recognising the voice?

If anyone does recognise the voice and the suspect is 'currently abroad' then that would surely be a good lead?

pork911

7,087 posts

182 months

Friday 22nd August 2014
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
WinstonWolf said:
pork911 said:
fesuvious said:
I haven't actually been a critic of either moderate muslims or Islam.

I have stated clearly what I believe the ultimate intention of the faith is. Not once have I criticised it. I have laid out pieces that I believe pertain to Islamic desires, and the desire of the faith itself.

Not once have I criticised it though. Although I can understand why you have interpreted what I have written as a criticism.

I have also set out what I believe has not been said, and indeed what conclusion I would draw from it.

I have not criticised it though.
What's the problem then?
Adults still believing in Father Christmas. Other than the colour of the beard I haven't been able to discern any differences.

Only applies to believers, check.
Story passed down through the generations, check.
Bad things happen if you don't believe, check.
No physical proof whatsoever, check.
And the problem is?
Have you seen all the bother the believers in different Father Christmas cause?

That is the problem...
people acting in problematic ways on the basis of their stupid beliefs is problematic - doesn't matter the flavour of those beliefs
I agree completely. Adults killing each other just because you believe in the wrong Father Christmas? In 2014? Really?
people will always find reasons to kill