Next EU Meddling Target: Vacuum Cleaners
Discussion
Mr GrimNasty said:
REALIST123 said:
Having said that, Vacuums clearly don't need massive motors unless they're badly designed so maybe it's not that bad a thing, though probably hardly noticeable in the scheme of things. Same with hairdriers.
Now kettles, I don't get. I would have thought most kettles were pretty efficient as it's such a simple application and all that would happen if they cut the rating would be longer boiling times.
Your point about the kettle is exactly the same with the hairdryer and the vacuum. Higher power appliances are nor less efficient, as they are just faster.Now kettles, I don't get. I would have thought most kettles were pretty efficient as it's such a simple application and all that would happen if they cut the rating would be longer boiling times.
If you have a 300W hair dryer, you will sit there for ages instead of blasting your hair dry in seconds with a 1500W one.
And as I said above. Assuming global warming wasn't a fake scare, which it is, this won't make any difference anyway.
With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
All nit picking I know, in the grand scheme of things.
herewego said:
beko1987 said:
I welcome this ruling (as a vacuum cleaner collector)
The problem with modern 2000w+ machines is they have s
te filtration. Most of the 'cyclonic' machines (that are not dyson) have a pleated filter firectly in the airflow. This clogs up fast, since the cyclone systems used are as good as they can get it without infringing the many many patents filed by Dyson, who do sue regularly.
Just wondering if you've measured the load. I'm assuming the manufacturers are conning us into thinking we will get a better clean from a more powerful machine therefore wondering if the stated power is accurate.The problem with modern 2000w+ machines is they have s
te filtration. Most of the 'cyclonic' machines (that are not dyson) have a pleated filter firectly in the airflow. This clogs up fast, since the cyclone systems used are as good as they can get it without infringing the many many patents filed by Dyson, who do sue regularly.I suppose it's the age old argument that a lazy 2l engine in a big car will perform better, and be nicer to use than a tiny engine in a big car (we havent had any longetivity results of a 1l ecoboost in a mondeo tearing up and down the motorway daily yet have we?)
Vax have a sale on at the moment of their awful 2200w machines, ends Monday. I'd recommend not bothering though, unless you want a 'pets' vacuum that clogs at the sight of pet hair...
REALIST123 said:
Yes, but as we know with vacuums, design can make a huge difference to efficiency. Maybe less so with hair driers but there are a still areas for development, fan types, airflow design, airflow focus, etc. as with vacuums, I can see well designed lower power hair driers drying as quickly as poorly designed, higher power ones.
With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
All nit picking I know, in the grand scheme of things.
Kettles are kettles. Energy lost through heat loss is tiny because modern ones are plastic and boil so quickly, the kettle body hardly has time to warm through!With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
All nit picking I know, in the grand scheme of things.
A hairdryer is no more than a kettle with no water and a fan! The fan takes a tiny proportion of the overall power, there is no meaningful room for efficiency.
Hoovers cannot be significantly improved, they have been developed to death. There reaches a point where they don't actually suck anymore.
BUT NONE OF THIS MATTERS because the use of such items makes up so little of overall energy consumption, that scrapping them completely and licking your floor clean would not make one iota of difference to the climate, "in the grand scheme of things" (even if AGW were not the fraud it is).
It is totally pointless meddling.
REALIST123 said:
Yes, but as we know with vacuums, design can make a huge difference to efficiency. Maybe less so with hair driers but there are a still areas for development, fan types, airflow design, airflow focus, etc. as with vacuums, I can see well designed lower power hair driers drying as quickly as poorly designed, higher power ones.
With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
.
Exactly this. I'd wager that the kettle is far and away the most efficient household appliance and is a stupid target to aim at. It's possible to make a really good 1000W vacuum which works as well or better than a 2kW one. It's not possible to make a 600W kettle which outperforms a 2kW one.With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
.
hairykrishna said:
REALIST123 said:
Yes, but as we know with vacuums, design can make a huge difference to efficiency. Maybe less so with hair driers but there are a still areas for development, fan types, airflow design, airflow focus, etc. as with vacuums, I can see well designed lower power hair driers drying as quickly as poorly designed, higher power ones.
With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
.
Exactly this. I'd wager that the kettle is far and away the most efficient household appliance and is a stupid target to aim at. It's possible to make a really good 1000W vacuum which works as well or better than a 2kW one. It's not possible to make a 600W kettle which outperforms a 2kW one.With a kettle it's as simple as creating heat using a resistive element, which these days is pretty efficient. The only area I can see for improvement is insulating the kettle to minimise heat loss. I guess the biggest heat loss with kettles, though, is caused by them being filled to then make one cup of tea, so the same water is reheated a couple of times or so. Can't see how the EU can stop that, unless they force us all to use 300 ml kettles!
.
Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
hairyben said:
In 'merica a lot of households have 120v outlets which deliver significantly less power than 230v; as a result although electric jugs exist they're not as fast as european ones and it's far more common to use the stove.
Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
??Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
a kettle element is always going to be 100% efficient.
please explain how it can be anything other than this (and no, I am talking about the heating element within the kettle, not the whole kettle as a system).
putting a kettle on a gas hob is never going to be anything like 100% efficient by comparison.
Dr North at EU Referendum has a couple posts on it and as usual he gives the broader perspective with supporting reasons and links.
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=8...
Appears to be a world wide move to control appliances and make them more efficient, the aim to use less energy.
He is supportive of it and I have to say that his article changed my view of the vacuum cleaner thing, which I too thought was meddling by EU bureaucrats at first.
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=8...
Appears to be a world wide move to control appliances and make them more efficient, the aim to use less energy.
He is supportive of it and I have to say that his article changed my view of the vacuum cleaner thing, which I too thought was meddling by EU bureaucrats at first.
Scuffers said:
hairyben said:
In 'merica a lot of households have 120v outlets which deliver significantly less power than 230v; as a result although electric jugs exist they're not as fast as european ones and it's far more common to use the stove.
Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
??Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
a kettle element is always going to be 100% efficient.
please explain how it can be anything other than this (and no, I am talking about the heating element within the kettle, not the whole kettle as a system).
putting a kettle on a gas hob is never going to be anything like 100% efficient by comparison.
As you say the stove, especially gas, will be very inefficient.
REALIST123 said:
Scuffers said:
hairyben said:
In 'merica a lot of households have 120v outlets which deliver significantly less power than 230v; as a result although electric jugs exist they're not as fast as european ones and it's far more common to use the stove.
Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
??Thus a 100% efficient device (less a few % in escaped heat while it boils) is overlooked in favour of one thats probably 50%(?) efficient...
a kettle element is always going to be 100% efficient.
please explain how it can be anything other than this (and no, I am talking about the heating element within the kettle, not the whole kettle as a system).
putting a kettle on a gas hob is never going to be anything like 100% efficient by comparison.
As you say the stove, especially gas, will be very inefficient.
herewego said:
In terms of reducing overall energy consumption with a view to reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, when comparing electricity to gas you need to consider the source of electricity which is probably standard UK mix along with it's fuel to electricity conversion efficiency.
though somebody might pickup on this...gas to electricity - typically with the UK's CCGT stations you're looking at ~52-58% efficient
looking at this nutters work, a kettle on a gas hob is ~50% efficient
Make of that what you will!
Scuffers said:
herewego said:
In terms of reducing overall energy consumption with a view to reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, when comparing electricity to gas you need to consider the source of electricity which is probably standard UK mix along with it's fuel to electricity conversion efficiency.
though somebody might pickup on this...gas to electricity - typically with the UK's CCGT stations you're looking at ~52-58% efficient
looking at this nutters work, a kettle on a gas hob is ~50% efficient
Make of that what you will!
REALIST123 said:
Having said that, Vacuums clearly don't need massive motors unless they're badly designed so maybe it's not that bad a thing, though probably hardly noticeable in the scheme of things. Same with hairdriers.
I imagine the effect will be significant when you actually consider how many vacuum cleaners will be sold over the next say 10 years across the EU.Mojooo said:
I imagine the effect will be significant when you actually consider how many vacuum cleaners will be sold over the next say 10 years across the EU.
I agree and disagree at the same time.Probably the total amount of energy saved will be quite impressive but compared to the whole energy requirements in the EU it wont even register.
herewego said:
Scuffers said:
herewego said:
In terms of reducing overall energy consumption with a view to reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, when comparing electricity to gas you need to consider the source of electricity which is probably standard UK mix along with it's fuel to electricity conversion efficiency.
though somebody might pickup on this...gas to electricity - typically with the UK's CCGT stations you're looking at ~52-58% efficient
looking at this nutters work, a kettle on a gas hob is ~50% efficient
Make of that what you will!
not sure we have any GT stations in use now?
or are you suggesting coal? (ie, compare boiling a kettle on a coal fire?)
Looking at how my stepdads unloved b&q cheapie can smoke the garden out like an MOT failure car I can see why their moving onto those!
Lawnmower refurbishers - you're time to shine is coming! I'm waiting for 2017 when vacs go down to 700w. Hope dysons still stay at £5-10 a machine in bulk for refurb!
Lawnmower refurbishers - you're time to shine is coming! I'm waiting for 2017 when vacs go down to 700w. Hope dysons still stay at £5-10 a machine in bulk for refurb!
beko1987 said:
Looking at how my stepdads unloved b&q cheapie can smoke the garden out like an MOT failure car I can see why their moving onto those!
What about all the expensive mowers with reliable but old-tech engines?I've had a Mountfield and a Hayter, both with the ancient sidevalve Briggs and Stratton engine that - whilst totally bombproof - would most likely not meet modern regs. It is still used because it is cheap, rugged, easy to maintain and economical.
Watch us go down the route of ECU'd emission-friendly lawnmowers that pack up after being kept in a damp shed or used on rugged ground, cost a fortune for parts and - like cars - can write off an otherwise perfectly serviceable machine on repair costs alone
ChemicalChaos said:
beko1987 said:
Looking at how my stepdads unloved b&q cheapie can smoke the garden out like an MOT failure car I can see why their moving onto those!
What about all the expensive mowers with reliable but old-tech engines?I've had a Mountfield and a Hayter, both with the ancient sidevalve Briggs and Stratton engine that - whilst totally bombproof - would most likely not meet modern regs. It is still used because it is cheap, rugged, easy to maintain and economical.
Watch us go down the route of ECU'd emission-friendly lawnmowers that pack up after being kept in a damp shed or used on rugged ground, cost a fortune for parts and - like cars - can write off an otherwise perfectly serviceable machine on repair costs alone
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