9 year old accidently shoots her instructor with an Uzi!

[Jimbeaux]

croyde said:

Most British people probably have no idea what a person with a firearms licence here in the UK can buy and own. It originally surprised me.

For example you can own this:

http://www.lannertactical.com/LANTAC-22LR-LA-R15-A...

for about £1500. Fires as quickly as you can keep pressing the trigger and you can have a 30 round magazine. Perfectly legal with a licence which, as long as you are not a crim or have mental problems to be yet discovered, is easy enough to get.

Yet, thankfully, we don't have cases of young men going into shopping centres or cinemas and shooting dead lots of people. Touch wood.

You might as soon as some of those 1000+ ISIS boys come back for a rest. We are no different with our 100+ tbh.

[Jimbeaux]

vescaegg said:

croyde said:

Most British people probably have no idea what a person with a firearms licence here in the UK can buy and own. It originally surprised me.

For example you can own this:

http://www.lannertactical.com/LANTAC-22LR-LA-R15-A...

for about £1500. Fires as quickly as you can keep pressing the trigger and you can have a 30 round magazine. Perfectly legal with a licence which, as long as you are not a crim or have mental problems to be yet discovered, is easy enough to get.

Yet, thankfully, we don't have cases of young men going into shopping centres or cinemas and shooting dead lots of people. Touch wood.

That is eye opening to me.

I thought basically the only thing we could ever get is a shotgun.

I understand .22's are quite weak however im guessing they could still kill pretty easily?

More people are killed by .22LRs than any other round. Fact.

[Mr Gearchange]

Jimbeaux said:

Mr Gearchange said:

The premise of having a gun to defend yourself against someone else with a gun is ridiculous as other people have pointed out.

There are various instances when this is not accurate.

True.
But the primary instance of someone pulling a gun on you at close quarters isn't well remedied by you trying to draw your sidearm. You'd just get shot.

Now, when you are lying in bed and there is an intruder in your property who isn't yet in the room, then a gun would come in handy.
But Jesus - there's an awful lot of innocent people who get shot in those circumstances.
Reva Steenkamp for just one high profile example.

Then there was the guy in Detroit, Theodore Wafer who shot and killed girl who knocked on his door late one night.

There was another recent case of a Virginia Sherriff's deputy shooting his daughter dead when she crept into the house late one night.

These are just ones from the last month - there are hundreds of these type of incidents.

Scared and paranoid people having access to firearms is fking dangerous and they are scared and paranoid because they think the intruder might have a gun. And so the insane merry-go-round persists.

[croyde]

Jimbeaux said:

You might as soon as some of those 1000+ ISIS boys come back for a rest. We are no different with out 100+.

Better hope that the powers that be don't give them licences, although they would have to get past the far stricter controls of joining a club first

[Mr Gearchange]

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have Americans.

Lets just distil it down to the essence eh Jim?

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Gearchange said:

I do so enjoy it when Jim awakes and has to play catch up on the various threads that seek to diminish his country and the lunatics therein.

You should stay up past the UK's bedtime and get in some pre-emptive strikes Jim - would save you a bunch of time in the morning

Nah, this is my little stick in the eye, clogging up the morning pages at your teatime. Someone has to stand against you bandwagon of the superior.

[Jimbeaux]

croyde said:

Jimbeaux said:

You might as soon as some of those 1000+ ISIS boys come back for a rest. We are no different with out 100+.

Better hope that the powers that be don't give them licences, although they would have to get past the far stricter controls of joining a club first

Licences??

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Gearchange said:

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have Americans.

Lets just distil it down to the essence eh Jim?

A bit more insulting than funny, but Merry Christmas to you too.

[Mr Gearchange]

Jimbeaux said:

Mr Gearchange said:

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have Americans.

Lets just distil it down to the essence eh Jim?

A bit more insulting than funny, but Merry Christmas to you too.

How can that be insulting Jim? The Demographic you describe is entirely American. Hordes of inner city, gangbanging, gun-toting wannabe rappers. That's as American as Apple Pie.

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Gearchange said:

Jimbeaux said:

Mr Gearchange said:

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have Americans.

Lets just distil it down to the essence eh Jim?

A bit more insulting than funny, but Merry Christmas to you too.

How can that be insulting Jim? The Demographic you describe is entirely American. Hordes of inner city, gangbanging, gun-toting wannabe rappers. That's as American as Apple Pie.

That was not my point; I shouldn't have tried.....lesson learned.

[croyde]

Mr Gearchange said:

How can that be insulting Jim? The Demographic you describe is entirely American. Hordes of inner city, gangbanging, gun-toting wannabe rappers. That's as American as Apple Pie.

Sounds like a lot of our inner cities. Thankfully only a very few have got hold of guns, unfortunately most have knives

[Dr Jekyll]

scorp said:

Dr Jekyll said:

So by the same argument nobody should have self defence training in case they use the option to defend themselves.

Not really the same argument, there is a limit to how much damage your fists and legs can cause.

I was responding to jdw100's argument that self defence is wrong in principle, he wasn't referring to the specific damage caused.

[kev b]

The scum of society have always carried weapons but you don't hear of many people hurt in drive- by knifing incidents or stabbing a neighbour through the wall whilst cleaning their blade, never mind picking off dozens of people from their school roof.

[Prawnboy]

Jimbeaux said:

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

would they?
Don't think this 9 year old or the instructor were wannabe gangsters, or the 8 year old in the earlier link.
or at sandy hook.
or at columbine
or virginia tech
or way back to the texas university massacre

in fact just since 1990 39 people killed in canadian schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Canad...

in the US in the same period close to 300.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shooti...

adjusting for population it's still nearly twice as many cases.

not gangbangers, ordinary & unhinged people, ordinary places, angry, with easy access to firearms with a load of tragic accidents thrown in for good measure.

the list begins with a 6 year old shooting another six year dead old FFS.

interestingly if you then look at europe, germany, (that someone mentioned earlier as a big gun owning country) seems to come out on top of this dubious honour roll.

UK had one massacre at a school so we banned handguns.

more guns = more unnecessary death?

much like if you ask someone if they are an above average driver and 99% will say yes, i bet all the gun owners think that they are an above average gun owner, then get lax and don't take proper precautions. Then innocent people die. It's not just bad guys killing people but a lot of these deaths seem symptomatic of cultures that have such a casual attitude toward guns, people inevitably leave firearms laying around for children to get hold of.

but ask the NRA and more guns will solve all these problems.

[Jimbeaux]

Prawnboy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

would they?
Don't think this 9 year old or the instructor were wannabe gangsters, or the 8 year old in the earlier link.
or at sandy hook.
or at columbine
or virginia tech
or way back to the texas university massacre

in fact just since 1990 39 people killed in canadian schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Canad...

in the US in the same period close to 300.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shooti...

adjusting for population it's still nearly twice as many cases.

not gangbangers, ordinary & unhinged people, ordinary places, angry, with easy access to firearms with a load of tragic accidents thrown in for good measure.

the list begins with a 6 year old shooting another six year dead old FFS.

interestingly if you then look at europe, germany, (that someone mentioned earlier as a big gun owning country) seems to come out on top of this dubious honour roll.

UK had one massacre at a school so we banned handguns.

more guns = more unnecessary death?

much like if you ask someone if they are an above average driver and 99% will say yes, i bet all the gun owners think that they are an above average gun owner, then get lax and don't take proper precautions. Then innocent people die. It's not just bad guys killing people but a lot of these deaths seem symptomatic of cultures that have such a casual attitude toward guns, people inevitably leave firearms laying around for children to get hold of.

but ask the NRA and more guns will solve all these problems.

Yes, the numbers would change. The high profile incidents make news but are a tiny percentage of what goes on everyday in the inner city and is not sexy enough to make the news. More people were shot in Chicago over the 4th of July weekend than were shot combined in those incidents you mentioned; yes. Did you not hear about that? That city, along with a few others, have between 7-20 shootings each weekend. Does that mean Chicago is dangerous? Not really, just a few select blocks.

[Prawnboy]

Jimbeaux said:

Yes, the numbers would change. The high profile incidents make news but are a tiny percentage of what goes on everyday in the inner city and is not sexy enough to make the news. More people were shot in Chicago over the 4th of July weekend than were shot combined in those incidents you mentioned; yes. Did you not hear about that? That city, along with a few others, have between 7-20 shootings each weekend. Does that mean Chicago is dangerous? Not really, just a few select blocks.

you were saying if you take gang violence out of it it would be comparable to other gun weilding countries, it wouldn't. It would still be more.

ps. yes i heard about chicago, another tragady to re-enforce the idea you should arm yourself to the teeth.

[Jimbeaux]

Prawnboy said:

Jimbeaux said:

Yes, the numbers would change. The high profile incidents make news but are a tiny percentage of what goes on everyday in the inner city and is not sexy enough to make the news. More people were shot in Chicago over the 4th of July weekend than were shot combined in those incidents you mentioned; yes. Did you not hear about that? That city, along with a few others, have between 7-20 shootings each weekend. Does that mean Chicago is dangerous? Not really, just a few select blocks.

you were saying if you take gang violence out of it it would be comparable to other gun weilding countries, it wouldn't. It would still be more.

ps. yes i heard about chicago, another tragady to re-enforce the idea you should arm yourself to the teeth.

Yep, they would just kill one another with bats, knives and forks.

[vonuber]

Jimbeaux said:

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

So why do people in the 'burbs need a gun for self defence then? Or is the roving hordes of people breaking into your houses to take your daughters virginity?

[Jimbeaux]

vonuber said:

Jimbeaux said:

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

So why do people in the 'burbs need a gun for self defence then? Or is the roving hordes of people breaking into your houses to take your daughters virginity?

Sometimes those in the areas that routinely kill one another venture out to "go shopping". Most will never need it and have not touched it except for the occassional indoor range practice. One hopes it is never needed. It is better to have and not need that to need and be standing there with your dick in your hand. Think the fire extinguisher you pass everyday that has hung untouched for as long as you can remember. You will likely never need it, but if you do and don't have it, really bad things happen.

[FredClogs]

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

It's gangsta rappers not rapper gangstas, m'lud.

And of course you're correct to some degree, America is failing to provide stable and violence free environments for it's young poor, but the restriction of easilly available fire arms I'd only going to make the situation better, it seems half of America wants to be Jesse James and the other half Rambo, you can't even stop shouting at your presidents, simply fewer guns will equate to fewer people getting shot...