9 year old accidently shoots her instructor with an Uzi!

[Jimbeaux]

FredClogs said:

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

It's gangsta rappers not rapper gangstas, m'lud.

And of course you're correct to some degree, America is failing to provide stable and violence free environments for it's young poor, but the restriction of easilly available fire arms I'd only going to make the situation better, it seems half of America wants to be Jesse James and the other half Rambo, you can't even stop shouting at your presidents, simply fewer guns will equate to fewer people getting shot...

"Stable violence-free environments for our poor" begins within those communities, not from a big brother government. My father grew up in a poor area; however, there was morality attached to their lives that dictated that one is to work when one can, one does not steal from another, 95% of the homes had two parents at some point. They did not even lock their doors. Blaming the government for not providing a safe environment only shows that you really are not tuned in to what is going on here. Not trying to argue, just inviting you to come see.....I'll take a few days and provide you the "experience".

[FredClogs]

Jimbeaux said:

FredClogs said:

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

It's gangsta rappers not rapper gangstas, m'lud.

And of course you're correct to some degree, America is failing to provide stable and violence free environments for it's young poor, but the restriction of easilly available fire arms I'd only going to make the situation better, it seems half of America wants to be Jesse James and the other half Rambo, you can't even stop shouting at your presidents, simply fewer guns will equate to fewer people getting shot...

"Stable violence-free environments for our poor" begins within those communities, not from a big brother government. My father grew up in a poor area; however, there was morality attached to their lives that dictated that one is to work when one can, one does not steal from another, 95% of the homes had two parents at some point. They did not even lock their doors. Blaming the government for not providing a safe environment only shows that you really are not tuned in to what is going on here. Not trying to argue, just inviting you to come see.....I'll take a few days and provide you the "experience".

I've got a fair idea of what's going on in America, I never blamed the "government" I blamed America, this is American culture, it's what the last several generations of Americans have created - paranoid government conspiracy theory's aside I love many Americans who I know well, it would just be better without so many firearms and an obsession with violence.

[Jimbeaux]

FredClogs said:

Jimbeaux said:

FredClogs said:

Jimbeaux said:

croyde said:

Isn't there stats that show countries with similar gun ownership numbers as the States that don't have dizzying amounts of gunshot deaths. Are not Canada and Switzerland two of these countries?

Let's be non-PC and get down to facts. Those places do not have some of the inner city concentration of thugs, gangbangers, wannabe rapper-gangsta's that we have. If you take a way that small concentration, our numbers of deaths by shooting would be a comparable percentage.

It's gangsta rappers not rapper gangstas, m'lud.

And of course you're correct to some degree, America is failing to provide stable and violence free environments for it's young poor, but the restriction of easilly available fire arms I'd only going to make the situation better, it seems half of America wants to be Jesse James and the other half Rambo, you can't even stop shouting at your presidents, simply fewer guns will equate to fewer people getting shot...

"Stable violence-free environments for our poor" begins within those communities, not from a big brother government. My father grew up in a poor area; however, there was morality attached to their lives that dictated that one is to work when one can, one does not steal from another, 95% of the homes had two parents at some point. They did not even lock their doors. Blaming the government for not providing a safe environment only shows that you really are not tuned in to what is going on here. Not trying to argue, just inviting you to come see.....I'll take a few days and provide you the "experience".

I've got a fair idea of what's going on in America, I never blamed the "government" I blamed America, this is American culture, it's what the last several generations of Americans have created - paranoid government conspiracy theory's aside I love many Americans who I know well, it would just be better without so many firearms and an obsession with violence.

It is what one part of our culture created, by no means what most have created. Like with amost things, the "normal" majority are not the face seen by the outside world. I agree, less firearmes overall would be a good thing.

[Dr Jekyll]

Brazil and Mexico both have higher murder rates than the US. Do they have an obsession with violence?

[FredClogs]

Dr Jekyll said:

Brazil and Mexico both have higher murder rates than the US. Do they have an obsession with violence?

Yes, I'd say so, you gonna suggest it's not am addiction just a necessary tool for self improvement or survival? Or is it a result of a governmental system who gives not a st for the people and is quite happy for them to kill each other?

[Dr Jekyll]

FredClogs said:

Yes, I'd say so, you gonna suggest it's not am addiction just a necessary tool for self improvement or survival? Or is it a result of a governmental system who gives not a st for the people and is quite happy for them to kill each other?

Both Brazil and Mexico have stricter gun laws than the US, yet miraculously this does not cause gangsters and druggies to give up violence and sit around singing kumbaya What do you suggest the government can do?

[vonuber]

Dr Jekyll said:

Both Brazil and Mexico have stricter gun laws than the US, yet miraculously this does not cause gangsters and druggies to give up violence and sit around singing kumbaya What do you suggest the government can do?

Well the US could crack down on selling guns to Mexico and buying copious amounts of drugs from them in return. That might help.

[FredClogs]

Dr Jekyll said:

FredClogs said:

Yes, I'd say so, you gonna suggest it's not am addiction just a necessary tool for self improvement or survival? Or is it a result of a governmental system who gives not a st for the people and is quite happy for them to kill each other?

Both Brazil and Mexico have stricter gun laws than the US, yet miraculously this does not cause gangsters and druggies to give up violence and sit around singing kumbaya What do you suggest the government can do?

I suggest a three pronged approach

A) Further control and restriction of fire arms and sanctions for those criminals caught with them
B) Helping young men avoid criminal lifestyles through better education access and financial support to poor families
C) Sort out the drugs trade that recruits and provides for so much of this criminality, by what ever means.

I would suggest arming more people will only ever lead to more people being shot, it just followed logically.

[anonymous-user]

Dr Jekyll said:

Brazil and Mexico both have higher murder rates than the US. Do they have an obsession with violence?

Some parts of Brazil and Mexico are very bad places to be. Everywhere has the potential to be rough but the wrong place in Sao Paulo or Mexico City would get you killed.

[youngsyr]

hairykrishna said:

vescaegg said:

croyde said:

Most British people probably have no idea what a person with a firearms licence here in the UK can buy and own. It originally surprised me.

For example you can own this:

http://www.lannertactical.com/LANTAC-22LR-LA-R15-A...

for about £1500. Fires as quickly as you can keep pressing the trigger and you can have a 30 round magazine. Perfectly legal with a licence which, as long as you are not a crim or have mental problems to be yet discovered, is easy enough to get.

Yet, thankfully, we don't have cases of young men going into shopping centres or cinemas and shooting dead lots of people. Touch wood.

That is eye opening to me.

I thought basically the only thing we could ever get is a shotgun.

I understand .22's are quite weak however im guessing they could still kill pretty easily?

We have two levels of firearm licensing (ignoring special 'one off' exemptions). A shotgun certificate allows you to purchase and own as many shotguns as you like provided they have a capacity of 3 rounds or less. It's trivial to get - you just need to have a safe place to store them and not be a criminal or have serious mental health problems. It's structured so that the police have to have a good reason to refuse you one rather than you provide a reason to have one.

The other level is a firearms certificate. This has recorded which type of firearm(s) you're allowed to purchase along with how much of each type of ammunition you are allowed to hold. You need to be able to give a good reason for each type and justify the amount of ammunition you want. The only things which are banned outright are obviously big military stuff (like grenade launchers!), fully automatic weapons, semi auto rifles over .22 calibre and all pistols (actually any gun under 60cm). More or less everything else is justifiable for various competition shooting/hunting.

The .22 assault rifle lookalike is a prime example of something relatively innocuous looking scary, it's a .22 plinker/target rifle wrapped in a quasi military shell. It could obviously kill someone but there are all manner of weapons available on a FAC which would be much more deadly if not as obviously 'dangerous looking'.

I think our firarm laws are pretty good. They restrict illegal access to weapons and, crucially, ammunition pretty well while still allowing responsible people to use firearms for their hobby or work.

This might make the comparison of a .22 and a military spec assault rifle round a bit clearer:



Not to metion that the UK legal one is single shot, as opposed to full auto on the AR (for military use).

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 29th August 00:46

[Jimbeaux]

FredClogs said:

Dr Jekyll said:

FredClogs said:

Yes, I'd say so, you gonna suggest it's not am addiction just a necessary tool for self improvement or survival? Or is it a result of a governmental system who gives not a st for the people and is quite happy for them to kill each other?

Both Brazil and Mexico have stricter gun laws than the US, yet miraculously this does not cause gangsters and druggies to give up violence and sit around singing kumbaya What do you suggest the government can do?

I suggest a three pronged approach

A) Further control and restriction of fire arms and sanctions for those criminals caught with them
B) Helping young men avoid criminal lifestyles through better education access and financial support to poor families
C) Sort out the drugs trade that recruits and provides for so much of this criminality, by what ever means.

I would suggest arming more people will only ever lead to more people being shot, it just followed logically.

There are education opportunities, the majority free. One has got to want to be educated, attend classes, and do the work. As to financial support, that is at an all time high. Moral direction, a culture of success, these things need to be taught by parents, families, etc.

[Colonial]

Dr Jekyll said:

Brazil and Mexico both have higher murder rates than the US. Do they have an obsession with violence?

Does America want to compare itself to the first world or the developing world?

[Dr Jekyll]

Colonial said:

Does America want to compare itself to the first world or the developing world?

As far as the discussion of gun laws in concerned, neither. They want to compare countries with liberal gun laws with those that have strict gun laws to see if there is a correlation with gun crime.

[Colonial]

Dr Jekyll said:

As far as the discussion of gun laws in concerned, neither. They want to compare countries with liberal gun laws with those that have strict gun laws to see if there is a correlation with gun crime.

But it is not a comparison of like for like.

It is a comparison of developing nations with developed nations.

Compare the rates of gun grime in developed nations with other developed nations. Developing nations with other developing nations.

Unless the US wants to place itself in the developing nation category, then compare rates of gun crime in the US with the UK, Australia, NZ, Germany etc and see where that leads to.

Saying "we're not as a bad as Mexico" is hardly a ringing endorsement of policy.

[jdw100]

Someone pointed out to me last night that in the USA you are banned from giving a child a Kinder Egg (a surprise, a toy and chocolate!) because it's seen as too dangerous......

[redtwin]

youngsyr said:

This might make the comparison of a .22 and a military spec assault rifle round a bit clearer:



Not to metion that the UK legal one is single shot, as opposed to full auto on the AR (for military use).

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 29th August 00:46

They are both .22 calibre though. The standard issue US military "AR" isn't full auto.

[jdw100]

Dr Jekyll said:

Brazil and Mexico both have higher murder rates than the US. Do they have an obsession with violence?

They are third world countries!

I note that Indonesia has a far greater death toll on the roads than in the UK so how dare our government insist on us wearing seatbelts!

It's not a competition.

[McWigglebum4th]

vescaegg said:

croyde said:

Most British people probably have no idea what a person with a firearms licence here in the UK can buy and own. It originally surprised me.

For example you can own this:

http://www.lannertactical.com/LANTAC-22LR-LA-R15-A...

for about £1500. Fires as quickly as you can keep pressing the trigger and you can have a 30 round magazine. Perfectly legal with a licence which, as long as you are not a crim or have mental problems to be yet discovered, is easy enough to get.

Yet, thankfully, we don't have cases of young men going into shopping centres or cinemas and shooting dead lots of people. Touch wood.

That is eye opening to me.

I thought basically the only thing we could ever get is a shotgun.

I understand .22's are quite weak however im guessing they could still kill pretty easily?

<crocodile dundee mode>

Thats not a gun

This is a gun

http://www.fcsa.co.uk/for-sale.html

</crocodile dundee mode>

[Dr Jekyll]

jdw100 said:

They are third world countries!

I note that Indonesia has a far greater death toll on the roads than in the UK so how dare our government insist on us wearing seatbelts!

It's not a competition.

The point is that thise two countries already have the kind oif gun controls that are suggested for the USA. Yet the murder rate is still high. While Canada has plenty of guns in the hands of law abiding people yet a low murder rate.

[FredClogs]

Jimbeaux said:

FredClogs said:

Dr Jekyll said:

FredClogs said:

Yes, I'd say so, you gonna suggest it's not am addiction just a necessary tool for self improvement or survival? Or is it a result of a governmental system who gives not a st for the people and is quite happy for them to kill each other?

Both Brazil and Mexico have stricter gun laws than the US, yet miraculously this does not cause gangsters and druggies to give up violence and sit around singing kumbaya What do you suggest the government can do?

I suggest a three pronged approach

A) Further control and restriction of fire arms and sanctions for those criminals caught with them
B) Helping young men avoid criminal lifestyles through better education access and financial support to poor families
C) Sort out the drugs trade that recruits and provides for so much of this criminality, by what ever means.

I would suggest arming more people will only ever lead to more people being shot, it just followed logically.

There are education opportunities, the majority free. One has got to want to be educated, attend classes, and do the work. As to financial support, that is at an all time high. Moral direction, a culture of success, these things need to be taught by parents, families, etc.

Errrr... sort of like "Be more morally considerate or I'll shoot you" ?

Seriously? Isn't that what we have states and governments for? This is a particularly complex web the Americans have weaved for themselves, it confuses me and I'm not even American...