9 year old accidently shoots her instructor with an Uzi!

9 year old accidently shoots her instructor with an Uzi!

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Discussion

Clivey

5,108 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Both UK and US societies have their plus and minus points. It's funny to see / hear some Brits / Europeans attempting to belittle Americans when their own problems are obvious. In fact, I must say that my family in the US have a higher standard of living than I do.

Prawnboy

1,326 posts

146 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
paranoid airbag said:
2)I've not head absolutely anyone, on this thread or any other I've read, in the US or UK, suggest that there's a situation where giving a 9yo an Uzi isn't stupid - to me this implies this is a "law of large numbers" accident rather than a failure of education (but I may be wrong),
i would say that as you can walk into bullets & burgers and have your nine year old shoot an uzi in the first place without the staff or instructors saying- no we don't do that here it's a stupid idea says everything about what they think day to day.

infact here i just type kid fires uzi into google and hey presto 6 fking stupid people just on page 1..........and these are the ones filming it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kid+f...

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Clivey said:
Both UK and US societies have their plus and minus points. It's funny to see / hear some Brits / Europeans attempting to belittle Americans when their own problems are obvious. In fact, I must say that my family in the US have a higher standard of living than I do.
Very sensible, thank you. I suppose you'll have to go. biggrin

Mr Gearchange

5,892 posts

205 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Prawnboy said:
paranoid airbag said:
2)I've not head absolutely anyone, on this thread or any other I've read, in the US or UK, suggest that there's a situation where giving a 9yo an Uzi isn't stupid - to me this implies this is a "law of large numbers" accident rather than a failure of education (but I may be wrong),
i would say that as you can walk into bullets & burgers and have your nine year old shoot an uzi in the first place without the staff or instructors saying- no we don't do that here it's a stupid idea says everything about what they think day to day.

infact here i just type kid fires uzi into google and hey presto 6 fking stupid people just on page 1..........and these are the ones filming it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kid+f...
Astonishingly the second match is a story about an 8 YO kid killing himself with an Uzi whilst under parental 'supervision'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDgZueOX_so

youngsyr

14,742 posts

191 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Clivey said:
Both UK and US societies have their plus and minus points. It's funny to see / hear some Brits / Europeans attempting to belittle Americans when their own problems are obvious. In fact, I must say that my family in the US have a higher standard of living than I do.
Indeed, many Brits fail to understand the US gun culture through a lack of knowledge of US history.

There were very good reasons for US citizens having the right to bear arms 200 years ago, namely to defend themselves from tyrannical colonial governments (us!), bandits, native Americans and wildlife that was highly likely to see you and your family as lunch.

Fast forward to the modern day and whilst many US citizens still see some of those threats as real, many don't but still are against tightening gun control, for various reasons.

Perhaps the most rational reason is that the horse has already bolted; it would be impossible to recover every single last one of the hundreds of millions of legally owned firearms, and even if you could, there would still be millions of illegal firearms in existence, leaving you with the worst of all situations: only the criminals being armed.

That covers my understanding of the general opposition to gun control in the US, but in this particular case I don't think it's the gun control that's the issue - it's the supervision. Giving a nine year old a fully auto Sub Machine Gun is clearly dangerous, but so is horse riding, American Football, scuba diving, riding scrambler bikes etc. All of those activities are de-risked to what some people would consider acceptable levels by competent supervision.

I've fired many different calibre weapons in the UK and US over the years and have even stood behind my wife as she fired an Uzi.

Whilst I personally wouldn't allow a nine year old that I was responsible fire an Uzi, I wouldn't consider it to be risky with most of the supervisors under whose guidance I have fired. I suspect you have to have fired a weapon under competent supervision to understand how seriously they take safety (and how massive a balls up the supervisor in this case must have made).

There are some very simple and strictly enforced rules at any decent gun range and the instructor must have let the child break several of them for this accident to have occured.

Here's a good example: watch how closely the supervisor shadows this 6 year old kid, who clearly isn't a beginner (the device he's holding is for timing - it records the timing of the gun shots for the competition). He also checks the weapon is clear at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_m1mesIo4


Edited by youngsyr on Friday 29th August 15:58


Edited by youngsyr on Friday 29th August 16:01

Clivey

5,108 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
youngsyr said:
Indeed, many Brits fail to understand the US gun culture through a lack of knowledge of US history.

There were very good reasons for US citizens having the right to bear arms 200 years ago, namely to defend themselves from tyrannical colonial governments (us!), bandits, native Americans and wildlife that was highly likely to see you and your family as lunch.

Fast forward to the modern day and whilst many US citizens still see some of those threats as real, many don't but still are against tightening gun control, for various reasons.

Perhaps the most rational reason is that the horse has already bolted; it would be impossible to recover every single last one of the hundreds of millions of legally owned firearms, and even if you could, there would still be millions of illegal firearms in existence, leaving you with the worst of all situations: only the criminals being armed.

That covers my understanding of the general opposition to gun control in the US, but in this particular case I don't think it's the gun control that's the issue - it's the supervision. Giving a nine year old a fully auto Sub Machine Gun is clearly dangerous, but so is sky-diving, scuba diving, riding scrambler bikes etc. All of those activities are de-risked to what some people would consider acceptable levels by competent supervision.

I've fired many different calibre weapons in the UK and US over the years and have even stood behind my wife as she fired an Uzi.

Whilst I personally wouldn't allow a nine year old that I was responsible fire an Uzi, I wouldn't consider it to be risky with most of the supervisors under whose guidance I have fired. I suspect you have to have fired a weapon under competent supervision to understand how seriously they take safety (and how massive a balls up the supervisor in this case must have made).

There are some very simple and strictly enforced rules at any decent gun range and the instructor must have let the child break several of them for this accident to have occured.
Actually, last year I tried pistols at a range in the US for the first time...I was amazed that I as Joe Average walking in off the street was given a USP and box of ammo in a basket and told "The range is through that door".

On the other hand, I live in a nice area here in the Midlands but recently there's been a worrying increase in the amount of burglaries apparently carried-out by those travelling to commit the crimes. One poor sod recently woke to find someone holding some form of sword over him and demanding car keys. It's no good being smug about gun crime in the US if you're crippled by one of these knuckle-draggers.

Obviously talking the issues that make these people feel crime is a valid option is the long term solution but IMO you can't blame people for taking their own personal security seriously. When the looting started in New Orleans (as an example), a firearm for personal protection was probably a nice thing to have. I've personally been to areas of the US where I've been told "Go home Whitey!" as I've walked down the street...

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Clivey said:
Both UK and US societies have their plus and minus points. It's funny to see / hear some Brits / Europeans attempting to belittle Americans when their own problems are obvious. In fact, I must say that my family in the US have a higher standard of living than I do.
We're considering relocation at the moment and spent the last 10 days out there looking around at schools, housing, etc. In that area the cost of living is roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of what we currently are paying, the fuel prices are $3.00/gallon and our earnings potential is roughly double to that of the UK. Weirdly, if you are an engineer you are considered quite valuable. If the decision was purely financial it would be an easy choice.


Foppo

2,344 posts

123 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
yonex said:
Clivey said:
Both UK and US societies have their plus and minus points. It's funny to see / hear some Brits / Europeans attempting to belittle Americans when their own problems are obvious. In fact, I must say that my family in the US have a higher standard of living than I do.
We're considering relocation at the moment and spent the last 10 days out there looking around at schools, housing, etc. In that area the cost of living is roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of what we currently are paying, the fuel prices are $3.00/gallon and our earnings potential is roughly double to that of the UK. Weirdly, if you are an engineer you are considered quite valuable. If the decision was purely financial it would be an easy choice.
If you are a qualified Engineer there is plenty of potentional in Europe or the U.K for you to make a good living.I wouldn't live in a State in the States if I had the choice,where youngsters play about with a Machinegun.

Prawnboy

1,326 posts

146 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Clivey said:
On the other hand, I live in a nice area here in the Midlands but recently there's been a worrying increase in the amount of burglaries apparently carried-out by those travelling to commit the crimes. One poor sod recently woke to find someone holding some form of sword over him and demanding car keys. It's no good being smug about gun crime in the US if you're crippled by one of these knuckle-draggers.
what use would a gun be if you wake up with a sword in your face?
presuming you are sensible and store a gun in your house either under lock and key or unloaded to prevent misshaps it would be useless.
Even loaded under the pillow it wouldn't be much use.
And if the argument is 'well if i had it they would think twice about breaking in', they wouldn't, they would just break in armed and shoot you if you went for a gun.

so very very few scenarios would be improved with guns in them.

youngsyr

14,742 posts

191 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Clivey said:
Actually, last year I tried pistols at a range in the US for the first time...I was amazed that I as Joe Average walking in off the street was given a USP and box of ammo in a basket and told "The range is through that door".
Wasn't near Orlando, FL was it - opposite the county jail?

I too was left completely unsupervised in there with 50 rounds and a Desert Eagle .50! biggrin

However, doesn't change the fact that it's the supervision that's lacking - not the access to firearms.


Clivey

5,108 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Prawnboy said:
what use would a gun be if you wake up with a sword in your face?
presuming you are sensible and store a gun in your house either under lock and key or unloaded to prevent misshaps it would be useless.
Even loaded under the pillow it wouldn't be much use.
And if the argument is 'well if i had it they would think twice about breaking in', they wouldn't, they would just break in armed and shoot you if you went for a gun.

so very very few scenarios would be improved with guns in them.
Admittedly in that exact scenario, a gun would be useless but I'm pretty sure that the average burglar couldn't break into my house at night without waking me up and giving me at least some notice. A friend of mine once greeted a burglar at the door (they were trying to pick the lock) with a pump action shotgun. IIRC he had the presence of mind to say "You rang?". hehe

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Foppo said:
If you are a qualified Engineer there is plenty of potentional in Europe or the U.K for you to make a good living.I wouldn't live in a State in the States if I had the choice,where youngsters play about with a Machinegun.
Yes and no, it is a different level in both of our fields. Not to get into specifics but with the equity in the house we would be able to move there mortgage free and buy another house with a small loan which would be let. The homes can be a bit 'cutter' but they are big and there are some nice areas. On that basis the plan wold be mortgage free and a second income home with a small loan. 0.3 to 0.5 x UK salary and $3/gallon. On the negative side a large chunk of the uplift will need to go to health care plans.

Where we are looking at is a rapidly expanding area and is a base for a good few European manufacturers and all of their supply chains. In terms of employment for engineering it is a very good place to be. As I said I don't like guns very much at all, machine guns even less. It is just one of the many factors in the decision but not one of the main ones tbh.

Clivey

5,108 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Prawnboy said:
what use would a gun be if you wake up with a sword in your face?
presuming you are sensible and store a gun in your house either under lock and key or unloaded to prevent misshaps it would be useless.
Even loaded under the pillow it wouldn't be much use.
And if the argument is 'well if i had it they would think twice about breaking in', they wouldn't, they would just break in armed and shoot you if you went for a gun.

so very very few scenarios would be improved with guns in them.
Admittedly in that exact scenario, a gun would be useless but I'm pretty sure that the average burglar couldn't break into my house at night without waking me up and giving me at least some notice. A friend of mine once greeted a burglar at the door (they were trying to pick the lock) with a pump action shotgun. IIRC he had the presence of mind to say "You rang?". hehe

Vipers

32,799 posts

227 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Can you buy an Uzi legally in the states? If no, then why have them on a range.

Why on earth let a 9 year kid even near a Uzi, legal or not.

C'mon you septics, get yourselves sorted out.




smile

rovermorris999

5,195 posts

188 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Clivey said:
Admittedly in that exact scenario, a gun would be useless but I'm pretty sure that the average burglar couldn't break into my house at night without waking me up and giving me at least some notice. A friend of mine once greeted a burglar at the door (they were trying to pick the lock) with a pump action shotgun. IIRC he had the presence of mind to say "You rang?". hehe
Unfortunately in the US the burglar is likely to be tooled up as well. It's rare here thankfully. Not that that would necessarily put me off. What would is that I would be uncomfortable living somewhere where someone can be made bankrupt simply because they are ill.



Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Vipers said:
Can you buy an Uzi legally in the states? If no, then why have them on a range.
Presumably if you can no longer buy them legally there is all the more demand for the opportunity to try them out on the range.

Vipers

32,799 posts

227 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
Dr Jekyll said:
Vipers said:
Can you buy an Uzi legally in the states? If no, then why have them on a range.
Presumably if you can no longer buy them legally there is all the more demand for the opportunity to try them out on the range.
Especially for 9 year old kids. biggrin

Personally I would rather take a good rifle to a range and do some target shooting, which I used to be good at in the military.

Pointing a Uzi, and pulling the trigger does nothing for me.

A tragic incident, which really shouldn't have happened.




smile

mrmr96

13,736 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
redtwin said:
youngsyr said:
This might make the comparison of a .22 and a military spec assault rifle round a bit clearer:



Not to metion that the UK legal one is single shot, as opposed to full auto on the AR (for military use).




Edited by youngsyr on Friday 29th August 00:46
They are both .22 calibre though. The standard issue US military "AR" isn't full auto.
Yes, they are both .22 caliber (well technically the AR round is .223, aka 5.56x45) but the crucial difference is the .22LR plinker is a rimfire and has not a great deal of powder behind it. The .223 is a centre fire round with a LOT more power behind it. Muzzle velocity will be a lot different. When you consider that kinetic energy is equal to mass multiplied by velocity squared you realise that the high velocity round be carrying a LOT more energy into the target.

Another interesting comparison of different rounds with the same "calibre" are the Desert Eagle .50, and the Barrett .50 Cal.

Desert Eagle 50 Cal


Barrett 50 Cal


Comparison of their ammunition makes it clear that diameter isn't everything...!


PS, this is also an interesting comparison of some popular rifle rounds:


The Lantac .22 plinker above uses ammo #1
The proper AR15/M16 usus ammo #16
The Barrett 50 Cal sniper uses ammo #43

Clivey

5,108 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
rovermorris999 said:
Unfortunately in the US the burglar is likely to be tooled up as well. It's rare here thankfully. Not that that would necessarily put me off.
When ordinary people feel the need to arm themselves (and I don't just mean with firearms), you know you have a problem.

rovermorris999 said:
What would is that I would be uncomfortable living somewhere where someone can be made bankrupt simply because they are ill.
Indeed...that is undoubtedly one of the aforementioned "bad points" and one thing that would make me think twice about moving there. Fortunately, it does seem that they are slowly moving in the right direction.

McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Friday 29th August 2014
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
Yes, they are both .22 caliber (well technically the AR round is .223, aka 5.56x45) but the crucial difference is the .22LR plinker is a rimfire and has not a great deal of powder behind it. The .223 is a centre fire round with a LOT more power behind it. Muzzle velocity will be a lot different. When you consider that kinetic energy is equal to mass multiplied by velocity squared you realise that the high velocity round be carrying a LOT more energy into the target.

Another interesting comparison of different rounds with the same "calibre" are the Desert Eagle .50, and the Barrett .50 Cal.

Desert Eagle 50 Cal


Barrett 50 Cal


Comparison of their ammunition makes it clear that diameter isn't everything...!
And the gun you can legally own in the UK out of these two is?