9 year old accidently shoots her instructor with an Uzi!

[allergictocheese]

Darwin in action. At least she wasn't in a position of power...

[NDA]

hornetrider said:

Ooops.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/us...

38 or 44?

[loughran]

This seems pertinent, Jim Jeffries on guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c

[croyde]

How can a gun just go off unless she had it cocked, which would be a pretty daft way to carry it on your person.

Edited by croyde on Thursday 19th February 09:13

[longblackcoat]

croyde said:

How can a gun just go off unless she had it coked, which would be a pretty daft way to carry it on your person.

I shoot most weekends, and at our club it's drilled into you that you always have the gun broken when being carried (or a safety flag for a semi-auto) and that it's never pointed even near a person. Fingers need to be off trigger(s) until you're loaded and the gun pointing towards the target. Basic stuff, but it works. And I check my guns over every time they come out of the cabinet and do the same as they're put away after cleaning, so the possibility of a mechanical mishap is minimised. I imagine idiot bra-holster woman didn't follow the same safety regime.

As someone said a few posts up, perhaps it's familarity that breeds contempt. That and the lack of a set procedure such as police/military have to adhere to.

It's tragic, but in this case the born-again who was "on fire for Jesus" proves that Darwin was the winner over blind faith. Stupid will out.

[Pesty]

croyde said:

How can a gun just go off unless she had it cocked, which would be a pretty daft way to carry it on your person.

Edited by croyde on Thursday 19th February 09:13

No it's isnt. It's perfectly fine and may guns are designed to be carried that way with no manual external safety either.

There are lots of good reasons to carry a pistol in that condition.
But no reason to have it loaded while adjusting it in the holster. I've seen some bra holsters they call them tity bang or some such name and point the barrel up towards the face

Keep your finger off the trigger It don't go bang.

[croyde]

I meant with the hammer back so you had already gone past the 1st stage of safety.

[Pesty]

croyde said:

I meant with the hammer back so you had already gone past the 1st stage of safety.

They don't all have hammers. But essentially it's the same and a normal way to carry.

It was probably a striker fired pistol as they are very popular for concealed carry.

You load them and they are carried " cocked" or condition 0 they are designed to be carried that way so when you need it it goes bang. You just pull the trigger

In a stressful situation it's been known for people to forget to remove manual safety in time. Hence the move away from those.

There are reasons for and against carrying a weapon in this way as opposed to having to rack the slide when you need it.

[hairy]

loughran said:

This seems pertinent, Jim Jeffries on guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c

Australia hasn't banned guns though? He also said they haven't had a massacre since 1996, what about the terrorist attack in Sydney? Was that not a massacre?

I appreciate that this was probably filmed before this happened.

[croyde]

So not all pistols have a 2 stage trigger?

[longblackcoat]

Pesty said:

croyde said:

I meant with the hammer back so you had already gone past the 1st stage of safety.

In a stressful situation it's been known for people to forget to remove manual safety in time. Hence the move away from those.

Not having a go at you, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard. In a stressful situation you need to be in control of a weapon otherwise you become a liability. The fact that people forget to remove the safety shows that they're not thinking entirely straight and that they are, by any definition, not in full control.

Solution: take away a safety feature so that people can shoot themselves more easily.

[LordGrover]

longblackcoat said:

Not having a go at you, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard. In a stressful situation you need to be in control of a weapon otherwise you become a liability. The fact that people forget to remove the safety shows that they're not thinking entirely straight and that they are, by any definition, not in full control.

Solution: take away a safety feature so that people can shoot themselves more easily.

In a society where it's relatively common to need to defend oneself and in genuine fear for your life it's probably more important to be able to get a shot off rather than faff about with a safety device. Inevitably accidents will happen, but that's their choice.
Clearly v different over here in a gun club.

[Pesty]

longblackcoat said:

Not having a go at you, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard. In a stressful situation you need to be in control of a weapon otherwise you become a liability. The fact that people forget to remove the safety shows that they're not thinking entirely straight and that they are, by any definition, not in full control.

Solution: take away a safety feature so that people can shoot themselves more easily.

If you say so but I'm guessing you have not thought out all potential encounters or how fast they happen.

So. Somebody pulls a gun on you and starts shooting you pull yours out but don't return fire because you have forgot to remove the safety. You are then a liability to yourself.

That has nothing to do with them not being in control . Are you sure you would remember when lead was flying at you?

Anyway you need to send your concerns to just about every gun manufacturer and police department who either designed guns that way for a reason or are carried that way for a reason.

Our police carry glocks they have no external manual safety ( most of them) I'm not sure what condition they carry them in.


Also remember you don't put your finger on the trigger until you want to fire. You don't have your finger on the trigger then remove safety. Even if a gun ha d a safety you would remove it and run your finger along the frame.


Have a look at this video. A few things to think about here. Notice the guy got away. The officers gun was either empty or malfunction you can see tha slide locked back but he could not reload due to Broken left wrist and being shot. Look how fast it happened.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O8-hgt8Z_qI

croyde said:

So not all pistols have a 2 stage trigger?

If you mean double action I.e fire with long pull for first shot no they don't

Striker fired pistols have consistent trigger pull. lots of manufacturers make them. Usually less pounds to,pull than a double action pistol or revolver first shot.

Note revolvers do not have manual safeties either. It's nothing new carrying in this way

Edited by Pesty on Thursday 19th February 10:22

[longblackcoat]

Pesty said:

longblackcoat said:

Not having a go at you, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard. In a stressful situation you need to be in control of a weapon otherwise you become a liability. The fact that people forget to remove the safety shows that they're not thinking entirely straight and that they are, by any definition, not in full control.

Solution: take away a safety feature so that people can shoot themselves more easily.

If you say so but I'm guessing you have not thought out all potential encounters or how fast they happen.

So. Somebody pulls a gun on you and starts shooting you pull yours out but don't return fire because you have forgot to remove the safety. You are then a liability to yourself.

That has nothing to do with them not being in control . Are you sure you would remember when lead was flying at you?

Anyway you need to send your concerns to just about every gun manufacturer and police department who either designed guns that way for a reason or are carried that way for a reason.

Our police carry glocks they have no external manual safety ( most of them) I'm not sure what condition they carry them in.


Also remember you don't put your finger on the trigger until you want to fire. You don't have your finger on the trigger then remove safety. Even if a gun ha d a safety you would remove it and run your finger along the frame.


Have a look at this video. A few things to think about here. Notice the guy got away. The officers gun was either empty or malfunction you can see tha slide locked back but he could not reload due to Broken left wrist and being shot. Look how fast it happened.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O8-hgt8Z_qI

croyde said:

So not all pistols have a 2 stage trigger?

If you mean double action I.e fire with long pull for first shot no they don't

Striker fired pistols have consistent trigger pull. lots of manufacturers make them. Usually less pounds to,pull than a double action pistol or revolver first shot.

Note revolvers do not have manual safeties either. It's nothing new carrying in this way

Edited by Pesty on Thursday 19th February 10:22

As I say, not having a go.

The police, who are trained to carry weapons and have a reasonable expectation that they might need them on a regular basis - certainly, carry like this.

If you, as a member of the public, are not well enough trained to remember what to do with a gun (including removing the safety) when/if it ever comes time to use one in anger, then you really shouldn't have one. And whether the gun has a safety or not, you'd be a liability.

I realise I'm shouting into the wind on this one!

[Bullett]

This came up on the concealed carry thread.

The controlled study documented in these videos show that concealed carry permit holders are fooling themselves if they think they will be able to react effectively to armed aggressors. Most CCW holders won't even be able to un-holster their gun. They will more likely be killed themselves or kill innocent bystanders than stop the aggressor. For more details, see "Unintended Consequences: Pro-Handgun Experts Prove That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense." http://www.vpc.org/studies/unincont.htm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s

[LordGrover]

Corrected link without dot: http://www.vpc.org/studies/unincont.htm.

[Pesty]

longblackcoat said:

As I say, not having a go.

The police, who are trained to carry weapons and have a reasonable expectation that they might need them on a regular basis - certainly, carry like this.

If you, as a member of the public, are not well enough trained to remember what to do with a gun (including removing the safety) when/if it ever comes time to use one in anger, then you really shouldn't have one. And whether the gun has a safety or not, you'd be a liability.

I realise I'm shouting into the wind on this one!

I'm not having ago either just putting another side. It's something that we in this country no little of so the immediate reaction of many is ugh that's so dangerous. Getting actual bullet fired at U.S. doesn't happen so people don't think about that eventuality and how they would react.

Not all police are gun people and only do the department regulated training and qualifications. Many ccw licence holders do lots of training of course some don't.

You seem to be still missing the point. It's the police departments who carry like that because it was police who forgot to remove safeties that's why departments went that route in some cases. So training doesn't always mean they will remember

As to civilians

Why do you carry a gun! For defence. The gang banger who approaches up you in the parking lot unseen is going to go down just as fast. that is the mindset for carrying a weapon, and the same reason for carrying a gun without a safety.

Even the most well trained person might forget. You never know what's going to happen when people shoot at you. That's the bit I think you are not recognising. Fear, affects motor function.

Also the hang up about safety. If you train with a firearm you train to remove it on the draw and keep your finger off the trigger so it doesn't have any affect on anything after.

You don't wait to remove the safety until after people have started shooting at you so in most cases it has no effect unless under stress you forget to remove it because you ahve just been shot.

If you carry a striker fired pistol in the condition that means you need to rack the slide to chamber a round probably safest regarding negligent discharge might mean you get killed.

Hands get shot a lot as you hold them in a defencive manner center mass where most people aim. You might also be using your weak hand to defend your self or push away a weapon pointed at you, in that situation your gun is mostly a club although there are ways to do it with one hand.

Personally the Germans with their love of squeezing cock got it right as far as safety and speed. but they stopped making those because we suck and they hate us.

Edited by Pesty on Thursday 19th February 12:07